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Ted's Energy Tips 
hey ted , I am hopeful that we have made progress in my choice. my ductless vendor presented the ahri certificate to get the accurate numbers at 47 and 17 degrees. the high end invertor system is 21.5 seer hspf of 10.0 at 47 btuh 32200 and 17- 21000 the xp 17 is 16.50 seer and hspf of 9.2 not a big a dropoff in heating at 47 32400 and 17 20400 . based on that and pricing , the xp17 is 3700 dollars less . there is minimal drop in performance in heating and cooling.. that is a large enough price gap to sway me to the lesser system without all the bells and whistles, true? two vendors are pushing for the deal and the guy that has provided this info also was the original guy to believe this was the better plan for me. he feels that I can use my existing wifi Honeywell stat that I installed last winter on my older system.. with doing that I lose a 700.00 dollar rebate from lennox but he feels that is all right because once you add their proprietary stat you are stuck with it and if it breaks more then likely that is not a simple repair but expensive as well as usually not a stock item on their truck to get you up and running.. so do you agree I could use my existing stat as well and forgo the rebate that is only availableif you buy the stat with the system.. I think we are at aconclusion that makes sense and this guy should get the job based on his knowledge and efforts to think about the best scenario as opposed to the most expensive system which is easier to push as most efficient and push energy saving as a selling point when they may not actually be there. thanks again. for your input. bruce
Here’s your numbers formatted a little for the comparison:
Ductless:
XP17:
For added comparison, here’s the data for the Carrier Greenspeed 3 ton system:
25VNA036A:
That tells me that the inverter system quoted isn’t like the Mitsubishi hyper-heat or other cold-climate equipped inverters which ramp up to maintain 100% heating output at temperatures down to 5F. Thanks for the comparison. So comparing the quoted systems, there’s little difference in the raw numbers. The inverter will still work a lot better dealing with the summer humidity if that’s an issue but probably not work $3,700 for your purposes. But the XP17 is a fine heat pump that would have been top-of-the-line a couple years ago, so it’s not a bad choice.
As for the stat, as long as your guy knows how to program it to control the XP17 properly. I’m a little dubious about his argument against using the Lennox stat and getting the $700 rebate. Any reputable dealer is going to have a distributor that could get a replacement to them in a day or two. But it is true that he wouldn’t have a replacement on the truck. But I’m loathe to recommend anything that goes against the factory recommendations. If they say you need that special stat to qualify for rebates, it’s because it’s required to get the full efficiency out of the system. How is it going to perform using your old stat? What if the system doesn’t perform up to snuff? Is Lennox going to support you if your installer does something that’s not factory recommended? Is there a Lennox factory rep that you bounce this idea off of? Is this guy factory trained and certified/approved by Lennox?
Personally, I have a bad feeling about it, but you’re seeing your guy face to face and have to trust your own judgement.
For reference, here’s Mitsubishi’s PDF for the Hyper-heat system.
Greenspeed technical documents
Hello Ted,
I purchased a house 2 years ago in January. Six months after moving in we noticed a bad urine smell comming from one of the bedrooms. Never could figure were the smell was comming from until a couple of months later when I went to clean the carpet we noticed that one spot never dried, we touched it and noticed that it smelled like urine. Then a couple of months later the floor is wet on the other side of the room, take note that these spots are along the walls. There are white streeks down the wall like water has ran and it’s also on the ceiling fan blades. Then we noticed that water moisture sometimes drips from the outlet plugs in the room. We looked just the other day and could literally see water steeks running down the wall. We pulled the carpet up and and the foundation slab would have water on it some days and some days not. We layed plastic down under the carpet and and some days just the top of the carpet is wet and not the slab or the padding. We done had it checked for a leak and they say there is no leak, not a plumbing problem either. We don’t no wut else to do becuz in the winter when the heat comes on the smell is unbearable.
This is a serious problem. Moisture issues can lead to health problems in addition to slowly destroying your home.
A couple things.
First, I would talk to a lawyer about possibly taking legal action against the seller. There’s almost no way a problem this serious could just pop up unless you’ve changed the living environment.
Next, you need a local company guiding you through this. Find an energy auditor and explain the situation. If they’re competent, they should give you suggestions like I lay out below.
When does this occur? Outside temperature, weather conditions, month are important information needed.
For now, I’m going to assume that this is a cold weather issue.
Condensation occurs when moisture in the air comes in contact with something cold. Under normal circumstances, the humidity is low enough to avoid problems.
You should monitor your home’s humidity level. If you send me your address, I’ll mail you one for free. Your humidity should be well below 60% during the winter.
Some homes have humidifiers installed into the heating system. Do you have a forced hot air system? If so, check to see if it has a humidifier. If so, turn it off and see if situations improve over a week.
You may have other moisture sources. When you shower, make sure that the fan runs while showering and for a half hour more.
What about your dryer? It must vent outside. Sometimes the hose isn’t attached at the back.
On rare occasions, people have so many house plants that the house is essentially a greenhouse.
Do you have a crawlspace under the house? If that’s wet, the moisture can rise up into the house and cause these problems.
Those are the first things that come to mind. But definitely keep trying to find someone local. You need a competent pro to help you find and eliminate the problem.
hey ted, just wanted to stir the pot a little more with my difficult choices of systems as well as contractors. my guy that originally wanted to go ductless is trying to push me into a lennox 16.2 seer system single stage with a heat strip. he kept stressing that the higher end lennox and carrier greenspeed is probably overkill for my situation of 900 sq foot home that only needs to maintain 52 over winter . he feels that the two stage system does not make as much sense due to the fact that they all tend to drop in efficiency at 17 degrees and lower. he feels the heat strip will be called for and so why not save the money and get an appropriate system without breaking the bank on something not really appropriate for my scenario. this company will service the unit for an maintenance agreement , no emergency call charges here. they have a solid rep as well so it sounds good to save some bucks and get a system that will do the job… we are looking at about 9500.00 versus 11,000 for the greenspeed with service that might be trouble even though they say otherwise. never thought this would take up so much of my time , solving the middle east might be easier! any advice on whether I would be all right with an efficient single stage system over the invertor technology that he thinks could be troublesome to get parts and have service guys understand the circuitry well since it is newer tech.. thanks bruce. when this is over , I owe you a beer!
He’s got some valid points and you’ll save a fair amount. OTOH, $9,500 vs $11,000 isn’t that much and 16.2 SEER doesn’t mean much since most of your money will be spent on heating where COP is the number you want to compare (well, actually HSPF). Also, while all systems drop in efficiency, how much they drop in output is more important. The Lennox will be putting out a small fraction of the heat at 17 degrees, so most of your heat will be from the heat strip – COP=1. The high efficiency systems like Greenspeed can still put out a LOT of heat at that temperature. There’s some good graphs at this link. If you don’t mind your system blowing cool air and that heat strip coming on and your system efficiency plummeting every time the temperature drops below about 35F then go with the cheap system. I’m too old and grumpy to deal with that, so I’d get the system that offers me more comfort and efficiency 😉
I’m going to correct myself before someone else does.
When those heat strips turn on, the system will be cranking out a lot of hot air. That’s how you can tell when their own. It’ll be like sitting in front of a space heater. It’ll feel really good until you look at your electric meter which will be spinning like an old 45!
hey ted , I have two choices here with the greenspeed system. one guy is more local , good pricing and the authorized rep that comes up closest for carrier with my zip code. his service is offering one year parts and labor and service during normal business hours .if off hours , it is an emergency call with extra cost. I basically go on weekends so if there is trouble that could mean extra fees for me. another guy about 20 minutes further away is more money (2000.00 ) but is offering full service contract at 195.00 yearly , no emergency fees . he also is pushing warranty out to 5 years at that price to try to get me as a customer. so is 3000.00 worth the piece of mind for this system and its electronics? over 5 years ? the cheaper guy stated that if the electronics goes out on the system or even the thermostat, you will be waiting for parts regardless because the parts are very pricey and usually not a stock item on the repair truck. so my thoughts are to go with the more reasonable estimate and probably push him for a better service contract if he wants the job! also the more expensive guy is offering a comparable lennox unit with a better rebate and service /parts warranty for extended period of time. so do I spend more on the lennox with better warranty or stick with carrier at lower price? thanks again bruce
That makes for a tough decision. Personally, I’d go with the company with a better reputation for service and honesty. Angie’s List is a great resource to get real user reviews, well worth the subscription fee. I own several rental properties and have found some of the best contractors on Angie’s List.
Given your situation where every call will be an emergency call, it might be a little painful, but you want a solid company that stands behind the equipment they install. Usually, they’ll be a larger company. The last thing you want is to have a problem and end up stuck in purgatory because the company won’t come out to service the system. It’s well worth doing extra work researching the companies to ensure they’ve got a real staff and it’s not just one guy with a truck. Standard stuff: how long have they been in business. How many trucks do they run. Etc.
hey ted, just when I thought I was done with my process, a new monkey wrench thrown my way. the guy who originally was pushing the ductless system called and I gave him an opportunity to compete with a comparable ducted system. in our discussions, he let me know that the company he was competing with has issues with service and on my proposal sure enough , it states all labor and service during normal business hours! not good for someone like me with a weekend getaway. anyway, that is one issue, he also was stressing not to look only at seer ratings but had concerns for what he called ratings or cut sheet specs at 47 and 17 degrees to better determine the true efficiency and need for the higher seer unit.,. as well he stressed that we don’t really have a seer rating on the ductwork and we would definitely lose efficiency compared to ductwork now rated at roughly 8 seer versus probably at maybe 4 seer for old ductwork even sealed and insulated as well… he as well stated that since I did not like the idea of two commpressors with the hyperheat ductless, now Mitsubishi does have a hyperheat multiple head unit that would probably suit my suits very well. holy crap! my wife and myself are stunned as we were ready to commit this week, the service issue is big for us , so will call about that for clarity but should I be overanalyzing the cut sheet info for those numbers or do I just already know that in cold snaps I will be burning electric aggressively or is the hyperheat ductless system better suited for the colder temps then the central greenspeed with heat pump. it boils down to whichever is going to be more effeiciant heating without chance of failure and excessive electric sucking . thanks again bruce
Your ductless guy is saying the right things. Particularly the 47/17 degree ratings and ductwork – those are critical. If you look at specs closely, some manufacturers will show SEER ratings based on climate. OTOH, you’ll probably find that a high SEER system will be better at all temperatures than the lower rated system.
With respect to analyzing the efficiency numbers, I would not worry about it at this point. The systems you’re looking at are all highly efficient and it’s the installer that’s going to make the difference. But I would look at the numbers to check out the system output at lower temperatures. The hyper heat and Greenspeed systems are designed to perform well at lower temperatures. Conventional systems drop output considerably below around 35 degrees.
hey ted , any advice on placement of carrier greenspeed system in north fork li home for optimal operation. I was told that in the wrong spot could burn out the machine and make it struggle in certain conditions. thanks
In general, they recommend keeping it out of direct sunlight – north or north-east side of house is usually best or where it’s shaded by trees. But you want to keep it far enough away from trees/shrubs so that there’s free air flow.
The other thing to be careful about is snow buildup around the unit. My mini-splits often get surrounded by snow drifts so I have to go out and shovel them out during the winter. The installation manual should give specifications for the installer – so many inches away from walls and so on. Typically I just recommend that people install them based on manufacturer’s specs. That way, if there’s a warranty issue, they shouldn’t claim that you installed it wrong.
hey ted , we are close to decision time now . 1100 sq ft second home with adequate ductwork . sealing ducts with ul181 tape and reinsulating seams where assessable 300.00 adding heat strip to AIR HANDLER 500.00 . the energy audit guy recommended some stuff called mastic seal but if the tape is adequate , ia m good with it, don’t know if he is just doing an easier fix that may not be as solid but passable. I discussed a lesser system then greenspeed 19 seer for 10875.00 to a 16 seer two stage for 9475.00 and 15 seer single stage for 8900.00. you get what you pay for ,either now or later! the single stage system seems to be out in my mind, the 16 seer is enticing but am I thinking clearly that I should be thinking about summer /winter performance even if the house will basically be 52 most of the winter..the 1400 difference for the greenspeed.hopefully will come back to me in effeciancy . if I plan to save about 200.00 a year in electric costs over the 16 seer, is that reasonable or not. .that puts me a 7 years to recoup that 1400.00. I am ok with that , but over 8 years makes me lean to the savings now for the 16 seer. any thoughts on that upgrade from 16 to 19 is a good move in this situation or would you save your chips now because it is not worth it. my 200.00 yearly savings is a total guesstimate. thanks for your input. bruce
Tape can be fine if the ducts are clean and you get good adhesion but I only trust it on clean sheet metal that I can inspect like around the air handler. Personally, I used mastic on my own ducts because I felt it was a more permanent solution. FYI – mastic is a thick, fiber reinforced glue/paste. As a general rule – trust your energy auditor – their job is to make recommendations based on industry best practices. Contractors often sound convincing but they often want to get in and out as fast as possible for the lowest cost.
I’m with you on the heat pump choice. The price you’re quoted are very good, so I’d go for the better system. You’ll end up with a more efficient and comfortable home.
Cheers!
Hi, I’m the one who wrote about the TRANE minisplite system (on Sept. 30th) in the old house that has never worked right. The short story is the system has 4 inside units one in each bed room and one in the bath room. The outside units model # is 4TXM6 the company that installed it refuse to even respond to our repeated calls and e-mails. The only time they have ever responded back was when the gas company locked the meter due to the carbon monoxide levels in the house due to the new furnace in the basement. What I’m looking for is a clue what is wrong with the upstairs , I do know that the line sets are 2-3 times longer than the max. length and the 20ft rise is a lot more than the max. as far as I can tell from my research. Since they never left any of the paper work for the units I’m assuming the Trane info. on the net is correct. Please at least point me in the right direction winter is closing in and it gets real cold upstairs with no heat.
Thanks for any help you can give
This reflects quite poorly on Trane, which bills itself as a premium brand. It’s unfortunate that your installer refuses to stand behind the system. Unfortunately, such HVAC contractors are common.
There’s a couple of things I’d recommend.
One option is to get in touch with your local BBB and explain your situation. They will often act as a go-between in order to try to resolve such situations. The downside of this is that you’re stuck with the same, incompetent installer. Personally, if they botched the installation that badly, I’d take my money elsewhere!
The other option is to contact Trane and find out what companies in your area have “factory trained” installers. You want someone working on your system who actually has worked with them. I’ve unfortunately been victim to installers who sell product lines that they’ve never had their hands on. You don’t want this under any circumstances. Tell Trane that your system isn’t working properly and your installer refuses to return calls to make it right.
Here’s a link to their customer service form:
Note that they also give a phone number: 800-945-5884 between the hours of 8:00 am to 6:00 pm CST. Try calling first to explain your situation and insist on getting a reference for the aforementioned factory trained service organization in your area.
Good luck. Let us know how it works out. If the Trane corporate offices don’t give you satisfaction, that’s a black eye for them. Why pay the Trane premium price if they won’t stand behind their product?
Thanks Ted – I was able to clear the flashing lights by turning off the breaker for a few minutes – it appears to be working fine for now – BUT I do want to get it checked out – I was really surprised when I noticed that labor wasn’t covered under the warranty – unbelievable when you consider what these units cost. I did hear back from my installer and he referred me to another company and offered to come take a look when he gets back from the police academy.
Your forum is an excellent resource and much appreciated!
Glad you got a reference. I hope the smell wasn’t something serious but I wouldn’t count on it. Like you said, definitely want it checked out – you wouldn’t want it to totally burn out in a puff of smoke!
cheers,
-Ted
Hi Ted – We had our heat pump serviced today – the problem had nothing to do with the unit itself. I did contact Fujitsu as you suggested and the rep told me from the sequence of the flashing lights that we had a leak in the system. I ended up calling a local company with a good reputation and $637 later, the leak is fixed and the unit recharged. The problem was in the installation – a bad fitting – so I plan on sending a copy of the repair invoice to the original installer – along with his original invoice which clearly states a one-year service warranty. Not expecting any reimbursement so all that savings from last winter got wiped out pretty quickly. Now just hoping that the fittings on the other two units hold up better than on this one. The serviceman today did replace both the fittings on this unit – keeping in mind that this installation has the shortest run from the inside to the outside.
I was so happy with the heating, cooling and efficiency of all 3 of our units but now feel discouraged that our efforts to live greener and save a few dollars are going to cost us more in the long run. The Company we hired came highly recommended but had only been in business for a short time. Hard lesson learned – !
That’s good news (in the scheme of things)! A bad fitting is a whole lot better than the alternatives. I’m glad the company you found was able to find it. Many will just say “yup, you have a leak” then proceed to add refrigerant which just leaks out again!
Good idea to try to put some pressure on the original installer. These situations are often heartbreaking. I’ve definitely spent more on high-efficiency systems than I would have saved with middle of the road systems. On the other hand, if they botched a high end system, they might have done the same for the less efficient system, so you’d be out even more. I like to imagine that we’re doing our part to conserve and cumulatively, we’re helping to make the world a better place.
Hi Ted – we installed three Fujitsu mini-splits last November for both heating and cooling. Enjoyed huge decrease in oil consumption, slight increase in electrical cost/usage and a comfortable warm house in the winter and a cool and dry home in the summer.
For the second time this season, we turned the units to heat mode and things were nice and toasty on a cool fall morning. Then I noticed an odd odor coming from the bedroom unit and all three lights on the front were flashing. According to the user’s manual, instructions are to shut off the unit and call service when this happens.
I have a call in to the installer (who unfortunately decided to become a police officer in the meantime) and the units are under warranty – but I noticed that Fujitsu’s warranty covers parts, not labor – SO hoping you might be able to offer some suggestions on what the problem might be before we get too far into it. And if I can’t get the installer to come back, do I contact Fujitsu? Any information you can provide would be a big help – Thank you
I would contact Fujitsu immediately to report the issue and schedule a service call with a service company whom they recommend. Most of the time when you get unfamiliar odors, that’s a sign of an electrical component burning out. Since these are modular systems, they’ll likely have to replace a circuit board.
For a trained repair person, this should take a couple hours.
When you contact Fujitsu, I’d appeal to them, noting how new the systems are. It’s unconscionable for these companies to make consumers pay for labor under these circumstances. Unfortunately, they all do, but it’s a real point of contention for me. Can you imagine if your car’s engine blew out a year after buying it and the manufacturer made you pay for labor?!
Good luck. Hope you get up and running ASAP.
hey ted , we are getting close now ! the energy audit guys feels my duct work is adequate to do the job especially if i tighten it up with some stuff called mastic seal at the seams. so it looks good for the system using my existing ductwork… i saw that lennox is running some deal with costco with a 900.00 rebate card. they seem to be more pricey then even the carrier for there high end inverter system, so i am wondering if you have any preference between the two and the lennox has an addon for some sort of solar hookup directly into the system. not sure how that is any differant then just adding panels at a later date to try to offset some of my future electric costs. . any advice would be great . thanks again for your help in directing me down this maze of decisionmaking, could use a flowsheet to break it down maybe. how about that for simplifying the process . simple yes and nos would push you to your needed solution at the end.customers would love it . thanks again bruce
That’s great news. Makes things easier and less expensive.
Did the energy guys have any recommendations for who to use for the duct sealing? I’ve found that it can be tough to get someone competent to do the detailed work required. Ideally, it’s someone with a relationship with the auditor so the auditor can tell them exactly which areas need repair.
The auditor may also be able to make recommendations for the heat pump. Getting a really good HVAC installer is key. A bad installer will ruin even the most efficient system while a good one will make even a basic system sing. That is a long way to say that I don’t worry much about the particular manufacturer, it’s who’s doing it.
Almost 1 year ago we had a Trane minisplit ,multi system 16 seer inverter system installed in a 100 year old 2 story house. The house is 1500 sq. ft. downstairs and 1500 sq.ft. upstairs. The outdoor unit model# is 4txm6 and there are 4 ugly inside units in the upstairs bedrooms and bathroom. The system is just for the upstairs. The units have never worked right at all, in the winter the temp in the rooms was never more then 5-6 degrees warmer then the outside temp. This summer the AC part of the system never cooled the rooms at all, it was actually cooler with the system off and the windows open. The installation of the system looks like children did it. We also had a new Trane xm95 furnace and a 3 Ton XL16 ac. installed downstairs in the basement. It has been a nightmare also they actualy vented the furnace into the basement under the kitchen. I did not notice that for 4 months during the winter. This company has done absolutely nothing right and the only thing they even responded back to us was the carbon monoxide level in the house ( the gas company pad locked the meter untill they fixed it. The only reason the came to fix that was due to the liability issues. What are are options here Could the problem with the upstairs be from the line sets being 80-100 ft long with a 20 ft vertical rise or did we just get screwed and the system is way to small.
That sounds like a truly horrible situation! The company that installed the system was clearly incompetent so I can’t say anything about the particular manufacturer and its products. It’s clearly not working the way its supposed to. If they were venting the furnace into the basement and you had elevated carbon monoxide levels, that’s lawsuit territory – they could have killed you. A company like that should be run out of business.
I’ve never seen or heard of even the Trane mini splits, Mitsubishi is the industry-standard that people have been using for years and years with great success.
Good luck with this. I hope you get those con-men shut down before they kill someone.
Could the problem with the minisplit system be that the line sets range in length from 60 ft. to 100 ft. for a rough total of 300 plus ft for all 4 units total. So far every thing I have seen says the line should not exceed 40 ft. and the vertical rise on all four units is close to 20 ft.
Hi Ted,The Trane name caught my attention. I recently had a minisplit installed which arrived unbranded, but there were two labels in the packaging to be applied by the techncian: Trane and American Standard. He gave me the choice, and I decided to leave them off. In researching the unit, I found that it is a line made by Gree, who makes units for other brands, also.Butch
hey ted , I am getting an energy audit this week for my home and the ductwork hopefully will be properly analyzed. my situation is boiled down to using the ducts with a carrier greenspeed hi tech system , a lesser carrier or possibly looking into a lennox x25 , there inverter system. any preferences out there? the ductless system salesman is telling me I am wasting my money on a way to involved and new system with the greenspeed, he feels the ductless is fine even if I go with a regular system not even the hyperheat mitsubitshi to avoid the issue of needing a separate condenspor for the hyperheat alone. he is pushing a lesser system with 3 heads and option of adding a head later. he believes the ductwork will cause more problems then the ductless version which is also using the socalled inversion tech but no loss of effeciancy thru the ducts as well as a cold attic space to further lower my effeciancy . this guy makes valid points , but what about having 3 or 4 heads to service and 1 or 2 condensors to worry about instead of just one unit. as long as the heating is effeciant enough to keep my pipes from freezing in the winter at 52 . does that seem like the more logical choice to avoid multiple machines with parts that break as well as just need to be serviced. ? am I trying to pick the most logical or most energy efficient choice here?losing some heat thru my ducts may not be a diseaster. these are the same ducts that for 15 years I have used a old inefficient oil burner and left my heat on 52 and burn about 250 275 gallons a winter. everyone thinks that is not bad ,so will I expect a huge dropoff or what.
I have to agree with the logic of the mini-split. My brother went that route out in Santa Fe and loves it last I heard.
I prefer having multiple systems because if one craps out, you’ve got the others. With a conventional central system, if you lose one system, your house freezes and you’ve got other big problems. As for maintenance, heat pumps are low maintenance devices. Clean the filters and make sure the condensors are clear of snow and leaves and you’re good.
That said, the Greenspeed and Lennox XP25 look like very sweet systems. I wish I had one to try out here. Maybe when my geothermal dies the prices will have dropped enough for me to get one 🙂
Your last comment is a very useful one. If you’re only using a few hundred gallons a winter with your old boiler, it’s not so bad. I don’t mind ducts so much going through the attic in the winter, but in summer, it can really heat up the air conditioning ducts in most attics. Let’s see what the energy audit reveals and take it from there.
Hi there,
The condensation is first spotted by actual drips on the floor (v small amounts) We then got on the ladder and looked at the glulam beam we have atjsut about the highest level of the ceiling internally. We discovered that the condensation seems to be dripping from this beam. It also seems like a sauna up there. During the day when we are working the windows are open and as yet we have no door so there’s lots of air circulation. We think that the condensing is happening at night and we’re witnessing it in the mornings?
THanks
Pam
You say that you don’t have any doors yet so there’s lots of air circulation since you’re in the process of converting the room. I have an idea.
At night time, the building cools down. By morning, the big masses of wood, like that glulam have lost most of their warmth and have cooled close to ambient temperature. Then, during the late night and early morning, it’s often very humid outside. That humidity could be circulating into the room, accumulating near the ceiling since moisture rises (it’s lighter than air). As the morning air warms up quickly outside, it still has that moisture in it so the humidity in the room could be very high, near 100%. So if the glulam is still cool from the night, it will be like a magnet for the moisture and you’ll get condensation dripping off of it. Moisture/condensation will also accumulate on any surface that’s still cool from the night.
If you have high windows in that room, I’d suggest opening them to help air it out from mid-day to late afternoon when the humidity should be lowest. if not, you might want to set up fans to flush the room with outside air. When you’re ready to leave for the day, tape plastic sheeting over the doors, sealing the room so that all that nighttime humidity doesn’t fill up the room. You’d clearly have to do it as air-tight as possible, just like a door. This should probably greatly alleviate the problem.
If this has been happening every day, it’s pretty important that you allow the room to air out when the humidity levels is low and close it up when it’s high or you may end up with mold problems.
After the room is finished, you probably won’t have these problems, though I wouldn’t 100% rule out other issues. But an house open to the elements is just asking for humidity/moisture problems.
Thanks so much Ted. We’ll take your advice and let you know how it goes. Regards from Phil and Pam in Ross-on-wye, UK.
Hi there.
We have a condensation problem!
We are in the process of converting garden building. It is constructed with a timber roof. The construction is as follows – Timber roof trusses + osb boarding + vertical battens + tyvex membrane (thus giving air flow channel) + horizontal battens and then finally cedar shingles laid in accordance with manufacturers instructions. We have air vents along the bottom of both roof lines. At the ridge top we have fitted a plastic roll of specialist roof vent under the ridge tiles to allow a flow of air out of the roof channel.
Yet still we have condensation arising after a period of day time sunshine and warmer temperatures.
What to do next – do we need to remove the ridge tiles and insert blocks along the ridge to raise the ridge slightly – again to encourage more air flow out of the roof ‘channel’
Is the problem anything to do with the inside of the building. We do not have a door as yet so cold air enters the building during the night. We have insulation boards fitted between the rafters and are half way through fitting a tongue and groove ceiling.
Help!
Where is the condensation appearing? Usually condensation issues are related to cold weather since warmer temperatures allow the air to hold more moisture. That’s why you get dew at night after a humid day. As the temperature drops, the condensation forms. So I’m a bit confused as to where your condensation problem is arising.
If you’d be so kind, please tell me exactly where the condensation is forming.
Thanks!
good to see I am not the only one wrestling with the heating /cooling issue. I am looking to follow your advice and will have my ductwork assessed by an energy audit next week. question the original plan I had of keeping oil with cooling coil to add on central air toexisting ductwork. this was original plan of oil company to add central when I replaced burner. isn’t this similar issue of old ducts same with colling coil system and another system with air handler?i would think an air handler in the attic would give you a better chance of pushing your hot/cold thru making the central air system a more effeciant choice. all that said, if ductwork seems adequate, I am leaning towards carrer central system if it will perform in cold without needing supplemental heat source.. have been told that heat strip on air handler is not needed for that system, others have told me they would put it on. alsoa little worried about the expensive circuitry that greenspeed relies on to apparently be very precise and efficient as well as repairing as well.choice sems to be waiting on the ductwork analysis to move forward
It’ll be interesting to hear what the other reveals. Unfortunately, often it reveals a lot more than you really want to hear about!
Even with a really good system, it’s always recommended to have a backup heating system. The coils themself are pretty cheap however it requires that you have the wiring and capacity in your breaker box to go up there.
Hello Ted –
We are struggling to make a decision on a heat pump system. This question maybe redundant to some that you have addressed in earlier posts. However, I would appreciate if you could address this again. We live in a 1,850 SF ranch home in Connecticut. Currently using oil heat and spending about $4,300/year.
As we started thinking about installing a central air conditioner (there is no ductwork in the house) we came across the Carrier green speed heat pump. Got a quote to furnish and install one Carrier Infinity Series FE4ANB006T00 4-ton R410A variable speed air handler unit piped to one Carrier Infinity Greenspeed 25VNA048A003 4-ton 20-SEER R410A. The quote is at $22,500 and includes installation of ductwork and 15 supply and return air grills. Would you recommend a switch and does the cost seem reasonable? Thank you.
First, the price seems in line with others I’ve seen for the system. It’s a premium one for sure. But the system plus ductwork – that sounds like a fair price..
There are a lot of questions to be answered before one could reply to “is it worth it?” The first question would be “what is your primary reason for switching?” Some people make the change for purely financial reasons while others want to get off of oil. You may have multiple reasons, i.e. operation cost plus adding central AC to the house.
The cost/benefit analysis also should include factors like comfort. If you’ve got an oil system with radiators or baseboard heaters, it’s probably pretty comfortable, good on the coldest of days. Even with modern systems, some people find the switch to heat pumps or any other forced air heating system to be a comfort downgrade.
Let me tell you what I did in my home. I installed a heat pump and kept the oil system. Went from 1500 gallons down to maybe 250 gallons of oil. I use the heat pump almost all the time. When it gets really cold and the heat pump struggles to keep me warm, I turn on the oil system. Works great and I’m very glad I went that route. Especially after last winter!!!
Having said that, if I were you, I’d have the heating contractor give you a few quotes for comparison. You’ve already got the premium solution. I’d ask for the price of exactly the same setup but instead of the Greenspeed, price it with a 2-stage Infinity heat pump. Until the Greenspeed came along, a 2-stage heat pump was the best you could buy and people were very happy with them.
Then, a third option would be just a nice central air system. This gives you the base cost. With these systems, you could weigh the various factors, like oil cost vs. electric cost and so on.
I’m happy to elaborate when you get more information as we can all learn from these analysis.
Cheers,
-Ted
Thanks, Ted! We will follow up with a second quote on a 2 stage heat pump. We like the idea of reducing our oil dependency.
Hello, i have exploring and enjoying your website. I have a question regarding my home built in 1900 which is 1 and half stories. The sloped ceiling in the bedrooms, are not insulated. The options i am aware of would be to take down the drywall and insulate with baffles and fiberglass, foam or dense pack with cellose. Would it be crazy/wrong to add foam board over the existing drywall and then add more drywall and mud over that?
Actually, as I read your question, I was thinking exactly that. I’ve considered doing this for my own home.
There are great advantages to adding foam board on the interior. The trick is properly affixing it to the existing ceiling since finding the rafters/studs can be a little bit of a pain. But if you attach wood, like 2×3’s, perpendicular to the existing rafters, you’ll give yourself a strong surface to mount the new drywall and install the foam board. This will give you a tightly insulated and air sealed ceiling and make it much less likely that you’ll have moisture problems under your roof in the future.
Thank you very much Ted!
Hi Ted,
From what I can tell from your ETC Creations website you are no longer doing home energy audits. I am investigating the possibility of getting into that field and would greatly appreciate any advice you could provide. I’d like to send you a short letter explaining who I am and what I’m interested in, along with a couple questions about your experience in this area. I know your experience and insights will go a long way in helping me make an intelligent and informed decision. Is there an email address I can send this letter to?
Thanks …. Tom
thanks again for your help, after giving my hvac vendors your concerns , . the Mitsubishi rep is back on the ductless route with one hyperheat unit for my living room /kitchen region, a second unit for 2 of three small bedrooms that will not provide heat apparently below 20 degrees. he feels this is adequate to prevent frozen pipes . this is around 10,000 beans. he also felt we would be all right with further insulating my existing ductwork to prevent leakage and ineffeciancy. the greenspeed setup is coming in at 11,000 beans. . the other hvac dealer is telling me that the hyperheat system is more then likely overkill, more then my cottage needs and has a customer with a regular system with multilple trains off one condenser for several years without a problem with a bigger home. this is obviously a less expensive route to take , but there is always a but . if it fails then i am not a happy camper. new ductwork estimate for the greenspeed is around 3500 more beans . my wife is running out of patience with my overanalysis of this but as a unbiased outsider ,your advice is the easiest to believe due to you having no vested interest in making the deal. my wife prefers to use the existing ductwork if you feel insulating better will get the job done. who does a air flow test to check the integrity of my ducts ? do I call yet someone else to assess the home to see what they want to sell me?
I know what you mean about over-analysis! I often fear that, but then, whenever I don’t trust my instincts, and just go with contractor recommendations, I end up kicking myself because I end up with a sub-optimal solution.
That said, your best bet would be to find a local energy auditor / building science consultant to walk through your home and needs with you. It’s added money ($300-$500) but it could save you thousands and they’ll be able to give you better advice than I can since they can see/analyze your exact situation.
It can be hard to find a really experienced energy auditor/consultant, but there are a lot of great people out there. Let me know if you need more pointers.
hello, i was wondering if you could shed some light on my heating /cooling dillemma. this is for a 1000 sq ft second home in a coastal area of long island ny. i have an old inefficient thermopride oil burner with overhead ductwork in place. the burner was an addon to the cottage at a later date by the previous owners and is literally outside the house in a outside structure with the ductwork then going up to the attic and thru the home. this unit is literally serviced outside when there are problems. i also have a buried oil tank that makes me nervous due to the high corrosive soil .i toyed with the idea of geothermal but the pricing is prohibitive as well as i have conflicting opinions on whether my region is appropriatel. i am being pushed to propane( wife does not want that on side of house either) or, ductless system with two condesors one for living room /kitchen, one for three bedrooms . i leave my heat on around 52 over the winter and visit this cottage over the winter for 4 or 5 weekend s at the most. i use my wood burning stove for those times .in conjunction with the oil burner. ithe latest salesman who is the authorized mitsubishi ductless actually is pushing me into a carrier greenspeed system claiming it would suit my needs better then ductless. this sounds good to use my existing ductwork as well as gain space in this utility room/shed where the oil burner is. i also like that i dont have to put a oil tank outside my house in a small yard to look at or hide. my question is whether the greenspeed will be more efficient then either a new oil burner or a ductless system . i dont want frozen pipes and want to be able to leave my heat at about 52 when i am not present and not worry about system failure in very cold temps. that seems to be the knock on the ductless route. the carrier greenspeed seems tofit my needs of getting rid of the oil burner and not purchasing a new oil tank. as long as it will perform in my region and not cost me more in electric to run in the winter then oil bills. i also get the bonus of cooling which is done by window units now. help , please , i am confused over my options and dont want to fall prey to a sales pitch. as you know , that carrier unit is very pricey and i dont want to pull the trigger if it does not make sense to work for me and my situation
Great questions! There’s lots of information in there so let me comment in the order you’ve written:
First – yikes! A furnace outside with ductwork out there and into the attic? I guess this is like the cottages I used to see on Cape Cod where people only occupied them during the summer. There’s been lots of environmental issues with buried oil tanks so I agree with your nervousness. Get rid of that sucker now, before it starts leaking and costs you tens of thousands of dollars for the environmental cleanup they’d force you to do.
Geothermal is great in just about any climate and would probably be especially good where you are because there’s likely a high water table which aids in the heat transfer between the loops and the soil. That said, for a 1000SF second home, I’d be hard pressed to recommend it. The cost/benefit analysis would show that it’s just not a good investment.
Propane is certainly a possibility but fuel costs can run high. With a big, buried tank, it could be unobtrusive and you could buy propane during the summer when it’s cheap. The added benefit is you could run a backup generator and the stove off it as well.
Switching to a central heat pump like the Greenspeed is a definite possibility. Those are really expensive, so you’d want to compare prices with a good, two-stage heat pump. I priced these two out for my own house last year and the price difference was $5,000-$8,000. A good two-stage unit would get you most of the way there and be more serviceable. I’ve lived on the “bleeding edge” of technology and have gotten bitten a number of times when I buy the most efficient units because there aren’t many qualified installation/service companies. The Greenspeed has been around for a few years now but still, I hear that a lot of techs don’t know it well enough to provide proper service.
The big problem I have with your existing setup and switching to a heat pump is the ductwork. Without having it tested out and properly sized, switching from oil heat to a heat pump through your old ducts is Russian Roulette. Why? Several reasons: 1) oil furnaces put out a lot of heat, so they’re much more forgiving of leaky ducts. 2) Because they operate at a higher temperature, they need less air flow than heat pumps to transfer the same amount of heat into the house. With a heat pump, you’d be trying to push more air through ducts than they are designed for. That’s a no-no.
Put a heat pump on those same ducts, and there’s a good chance that it would never get warm in the house. It might work, but do you want to spend $15k-$20k installing a new system to have it be less comfortable or even unusable? Not me!
The mini-split option is quite viable. You can rip out all the ducts or just close up the vents which will tighten your house and make it more efficient from the start. Two, you put the heat pump “heads” in whatever rooms you want, so you get heat/cooling where you need it. Three, you can get low-temperature mini-splits which provide rated heat output down to 0F. That’s pretty darned good, especially if you’re not going to be there much in the winter. Check out the Mitsubishi hyper-heat system. Even if you had to put in several units and the price was comparable to the central heat pumps, I’d still go that route because of the duct issues. An added bonus is that with a central system, if it fails, you’re out of luck. With multiple mini-splits, short of a catastrophic power surge, you’re not going to lose more than one system at a time.
Finally, something to consider is adding some electric baseboards around the house. Those give you further backup heat for emergencies and they’re very inexpensive as long as you have the electric capacity in your home to handle the extra draw. You’d only turn them rarely, so the expense of running them is something of a non-issue. For example, maybe you’d set them to turn on at 50F to keep the pipes from freezing. If your heat pumps failed for some reason, you’d have the peace of mind of having the baseboards. Of course, if you lose electric power, you’re out of luck either way.
Hope that helps.
-Ted
thanks for your quick response and analysis, i forwarded this to the mitsubishi dealer who was leaning towards the carrier system.i hope this will make him rethink his position and if my ductwork is up to snuff,great! if not then plan b with the baseboard backup heat in where my pipes are coming in was my original plan as well . the central with heat pump sounds better to provide my cooling as well so it is very easy to want that more. with the ductless , i was looking at probably leaving one bedroom without any heating or cooling to lessen the cost of this project and settle for keeping that bedroom door open to allow air flow into there in those times of need .this would be acceptable but obviously not as optimal for overall comfort as well as spending a lot on something and feeling like i cheaped out anyway. my fears of the ductless not working in cold is causing me to have to use two units instead of one with multiple trains off the one because the hyperheat needs to be independant apparently. another hvac guy did not even tell me that and thinks a regular ductless system would be adequate, he has yet to provide me his list of customers who use the ductless as there primary heat source as i asked. very confusing and interesting stuff to ponder , but i am the one who will be paying the electric bill for this heating season not the salesman. thanks again , i will keep you posted
Hi I have a fujitsu aou36rlxf2 mini split unit installed just over a year ago. The board needed to be replaced. I was wondering how long it should take to replace this part. It was under warranty so I only paid for labor to the tune of $975. How could this be? Any advice? Also I saw them soldering something on the board and was told by my neighbor that nothing should be in need of soldering. Thanks
I had one of my boards replaced also and it took a couple hours to do the work, so the charge was quite a bit less than that. $975 for labor sounds pretty steep. How many hours did they work? I’ve usually seen an hourly cost for this type of work so that would be almost a full day to replace a board at typical costs ($100-$150/hr). Usually those boards are designed for easy swap out, 2-3 hours.
As for soldering – most of the connectors would be “quick-connect”, so they just pop off the board. However, on my board, there was in fact a wire soldered on that went to the temperature sensor. But in my case, the replacement board included the temperature sensor wire soldered on, then the technician is supposed to install the new temperature sensor into the unit. They do this sometimes if a part has to be calibrated. There’s a chance that your technician should have done this but instead unsoldered the original sensor wire then soldered it back to the new one.
I would recommend checking to ensure that your company was “factory trained” in the maintenance of the unit. If they’re sending out techs that don’t know how to do a simple board swap, they shouldn’t be supporting Fujitsu products.
Just purchase a FUJITSU ductless heat pump for the baseman
curious to know why this one does not perform on the dry mode?
Nothing happen regarding dehumidifying, no water coming out from the outside tube
do you find this normal?
That’s indeed strange. Does it dehumidify properly in air conditioning mode? If it’s dehumidifying, there should, by definition, be condensate coming out the tube. Otherwise, it’s not dehumidifying.
I’ve seen this before and I’d recommend turning the temperature down. I keep mine at around 66 to get good moisture removal. That’s not to say that the room is actually 66 degrees, it’s actually in the 70’s. But that forces it to run more aggressively when in dehumidify mode. I have noticed that if I set it to 74, for example, it runs so little that almost no dehumidification takes place.
If that doesn’t work, I’d recommend having your installer come out and verify proper functioning.
Hi Ted,
First off, thank you for providing this excellent service to the inquisitive public.
I live in Southern California in an area where it can reach triple digits in the summer and not a lot of humidity. I am considering adding a radiant barrier in my attic to the underside of the rafters. I understand that this will help keep the attic cooler and of course that is where my HVAC system is, and I’m hoping it will help reduce the AC and heating load a little, every bit helps.
So my question is this, should I use the foil type radiant barrier (aluminum foil like stuff) or would double foil faced rigid foam board be a better choice? I’m thinking that the added R value of some 2 in thick foam would be beneficial as well since the attic doesn’t currently have enough insulation as it is (that’s another project). Also if the foam board is a better choice would I install it the same way as the foil, leaving a gap at the bottom and top so that the hot air will be able to flow? Also I wondered if installing it that way would negate any added R value benefits since it’s not a sealed system.
Oh the attic has gable ventilation only, no soffits and no ridge vent on the roof line, so not sure how well the flow would work in my situation. Adding a ridge vent and blocking out the gables is out of the budget at the moment and I didn’t really want to make that type of change to the system.
I think that covers it all, if not I’ll fill in any other blanks you need to know.
Thank you kindly,
Arthur
Thanks for writing and adding to the discussion!
Your climate is perfect for a radiant barrier. Given the description, I’d stick with simple foil radiant barrier. You can make quick work of it with a helper (much easier with a second person. I already made the mistake of trying to do this alone! 🙂
Why?
The short explanation is that, without full air sealing, the foam board would be of little use. The warm air between the roof and the foam board would rise up and form a convection current around the foam – exactly as you suggested. Sounds like you’ve got a pretty good handle on the problem. For others who might be interested – insulation is most effective if there’s a complete air barrier so that the hot (or cold) air can’t sneak around the insulation and into the space that you’re trying to insulate. Imagine a sweater with a big air gap up your back. That cold draft negates the effectiveness of the sweater every time you bend over. Same with insulation.
Cheers,
Ted
Ted, I am hoping you can help us decide on how best to warm up our SE Pennsylvania 1940’s brick traditional without ruining the beautiful plaster walls. We are expecting a baby in December, and the house comes with the perfect nursery- the back bedroom over the garage has sloped ceilings with a dormer, built in bookshelf, and plenty of charm. The problem is, we have never been able to use it for anything because it gets so cold in winter. We have oil radiator heat, and the rest of the house is pretty warm for an older home (no real drafts, main issue is original single pane windows throughout).
The easy solution is, of course, to properly add insulation to the attic, which we have done (correctly, I think- no mold). This does not solve our back bedroom problem, however, because that bedroom does not have attic access. It sticks out in a T shape from the rest of the house. Previous owners added insulation to the floor between garage and bedroom, and insulation contractors tell us it is sufficient. I can not dream of tearing down the walls to properly insulate the ceiling and walls. We have a dormer vent with a ridge vent over the bedroom, and the only access to the ceiling is through a crawl space on one side of the room. From what we can tell in the crawl space, there is batted fiberglass insulation on the ceiling with some sort of coated paper “vapor barrier.” That insulation would have to be torn out to put in any sort of spray foam or blown in insulation, and there is nothing but wood and brick behind it as best as I can tell. The newest this insulation could possibly be is 1970, as that date is stamped on the paper covering the fiberglass on the interior wall of the crawlspace.
We have gotten two quotes regarding blowing in cellulose insulation, and neither has mentioned a vapor barrier, and based on my research online, I am now hesitant to do it. However, given the rather snug nature of the rest of the house, I highly doubt just replacing the two windows would fix the problem with this room (I’m sure it would help some, of course). There are two approximately 22 inch radiators in the room, one under each window, and the radiators in the rest of the house have no problem warming the rooms. As it stands, the room is not usable for a nursery or anything else unless we buy one hell of a space heater. How would you recommend insulating or retrofitting this room to make it usable?
Thank you!
When I read 1940’s, brick and plaster walls, I worry. Tough to access from the outside. Messy from the inside.
To complicate matters, rooms over garages are often “bonus” rooms, added without enough consideration to energy or air quality.
Before continuing, here’s a caveat about rooms above garages – you have to be very careful about air sealing to separate the garage from the living space. It’s quite common for fumes from the garage (car exhaust, paint cans, chemicals, etc.) to migrate up to the room above. Since you’re talking about a nursery, I urge you to have some testing done on that space to ensure that there’s not a lot of air mixing between the two. This would typically be done via a “blower door” test. Even if it comes up clean, I’d suggest adding a timer activated exhaust fan to the garage. They’re not common but green builders have been using this setup for years to improve air quality in garages. When the garage door opens, it starts a timer that runs an exhaust fan. The fan then runs for a calculated amount of time (e.g. 15 minutes) that is long enough to flush out the bad air.
In addition, you would probably want to install a carbon monoxide detector in the room to make double sure.
Now let’s move on to your heating/cooling issues. It looks like you’re doing your research, and indeed, I was going to point you to cellulose blown in. I’ve seen very few moisture related issues with plaster ceiling homes because, especially in our climate, moisture movement from the living space into the space between the ceiling and roof, is extremely low with this construction. If you look at houses in our area (I’m also from SE PA) you’ll find that houses from the 1800’s through mid 1900’s had no roof ventilation and no moisture problems. It wasn’t until we started installing recessed lights and other things into our cathedral ceilings that these moisture problems really reared their heads. (not 100%, of course, but close to it). When you don’t provide a path for warm, humid interior air to get from the house into the ceiling cavity, there’s minimal chance of moisture problems. So, generally speaking, vapor barriers aren’t necessary. In fact, some of the leading building scientists in the country are trying to change building codes to NOT require vapor barriers in many locations because they often do more harm than good.
For the nursery, you might consider using a mini-split heat pump combined with improving the roof insulation. The mini-splits are excellent for spaces like this as they require minimal disturbing of the house. Definitely worth looking into that.
For additional information, I’d suggest you get in touch with my colleague, Craig Arbaugh, of Residential Energy Solutions. http://www.residentialenergysolutions.com/
Craig is very bright, can test your home for leakage and make impartial recommendations for solutions. He worked as a builder for years and is one of the leading energy efficiency guys in the area. You can trust anything he tells you. If anything, he can be too honest, which can annoy other contractors. But everything he says, he does with your best interests in mind.
Thank you! You have put my mind at ease considerably! The only path in our ceiling would be the electric junction box, so your description makes perfect sense!