If you have any questions you want answered, feel free to drop me a note. If you’ve got a question, chances are, there are lots of others out there with the same question. So ask away!
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Ted's Energy Tips 
I installed 5 Fujitsu heat pumps Model 12RLS2 and 4 are working great. On one unit I get and error code of 94 now in all modes.
I checked wiring and all is correct. No fuses blown Any suggestions?
Thank you
Googling around a bit I found the service manual and it shows that this is an “over current” error.
My guess is that there’s an issue with the compressor, like bearings going bad or a problem with the charge of refrigerant causing overload of the compressor. There are a number of things it could be that a technician would need to analyze to pinpoint the problem.
Your best bet is to call in your installer and have it serviced ASAP because it’s highly unlikely that you’ll be able to do anything about it yourself.
We are building a house in the southeast. It will have spray foam insulation and since we do not have natural gas available, it will have a heat pump for air and heat. I grew up with an “attic fan” and really want one in the new house. I found out that what I call an “attic fan” is now a “whole house fan”. I really love being able to bring in the cool air at night or early morning or — get rid of any “nasty” odors quickly. We are very comfortable with temperatures in the upper 70’s so with the fan we wouldn’t need the AC at night for quite a bit of the year. I have searched for information about using a whole house fan with spray foam insulation and haven’t found any. We are meeting with the HVAC guy and builder next week.
My questions — Is there an issue having the two? We will have a breezeway where the attic fan can vent to the outside. What else should I be aware of if we have both?
Sounds like a great home you’re building!
Energy folks often have a negative outlook on whole house fans for a couple reasons. I know you said you really want it but I feel obligated to mention the downsides. First, they often don’t seal well, making the house much leakier. They’re probably better now than they used to be, but I’d definitely keep this in mind, especially since you’re investing in spray foam.
Second, when you do turn them on, often it’s during the cooler, humid times of day. The problem with that is that it can add a lot of humidity to the house so the air conditioner during the heat of the day has to work extra hard to make the house comfortable.
But, as you say, having a huge fan that’s able to pull the stale air out of the house and bring in that fresh blast can be really pleasant. And, if you’re living in an area that has nice, cool mornings and evening, that too can be beneficial and reduce the need for “real” air conditioning.
As for your question – “is there a problem with having a whole house fan along with spray foam insulation?”
Besides the leakiness of these fans mentioned in the first item mentioned above, there shouldn’t be any intrinsic problems. The spray foam should make the house very tight, but when you use the fan, you’ll be opening windows and doors to air the house out, so that shouldn’t be a problem either. If you were getting a different type of heating system that depended on combustion (gas or oil burner), I’d have some warnings for you because the whole house fan can lead to serious problems there. But since you’re getting a heat pump, there isn’t an issue.
So overall, you shouldn’t have any fundamental problems with interaction with the foam.
Here’s some other links you might want to check out that discuss more details.
Home Energy Magazine on Whole House Fans
Department of Energy – Cooling with a Whole House Fan
Green Building Advisor – Fans in the Attic: Do They Help or Do They Hurt?
Thank you for your reply. I had not seen the first and third links. I like the idea of a smaller fan for a longer period. Not necessarily looking for a “breeze” from the fan, just fresh air.
The house is going to have an unusual shape. It is pretty much a big square with a smaller square cut out of it — off center — for an open courtyard that will be surrounded by house/garage. The breezeway is covered by the roof and will have a single car garage door on the side away from the courtyard. The breezeway will be between two other two car garages, which adjoin the house. The garages/breezeway take up one whole side of the square plus a little more. We are planning on putting the fan in an “unheated storage” area between one of the garages and the heated part of the house. This area is pretty much just a really big closet. So, I’m thinking if there is leakage then it isn’t from the conditioned part of the house. Hope that makes sense.
Hubby is wondering if the insulation properties of the foam will be affected by having two holes cut in the floor of the attic — one in the unheated storage area ceiling and one in the ceiling of the breezeway.
Thank you so much.
Pam
That sounds like a lovely and interesting home. I think I understand.
Putting the fan in the unheated area makes sense as long as you get good airflow from the house to that area and can limit the airflow from the garage to the fan. Ideally, you should make it good and tight otherwise the fan won’t be very effective in moving air through the house.
A question – in your question, you mention: “having two holes cut in the floor of the attic — one in the unheated storage area ceiling and one in the ceiling of the breezeway” – I don’t understand. You say that you want to put the fan in the unheated storage area, so what’s the hole in the ceiling of the breezeway?
Another question, is the home a single level? That is, will the fan be at the same level as the highest levels of the house? Typically, the whole house fans are mounted near the top of the house which helps flush out the warm air that accumulates up there. Will you be able to open the house in such a way that the air flows through the house and out to the fan?
A general operational consideration – air will flow through the house in proportion to the ease of airflow. So if you have windows/doors open near the fan, much more air will come from there than from the further reaches. This is also why I asked about air tightness to the garage areas – any air that flows from those area to the fan reduces the amount of air that will flow through the house. The fan can only move so many cubic feet of air per minute so the total airflow from all the areas must add up to that number. Depending on the size of the home, this may indicate that you want more than one fan.
The answer to the final question is yes – having holes in the foam insulation may greatly reduce the effectiveness of the insulation for two reasons. First, the area where the fan is will have essentially no insulation unless the fan has a built-in insulated louver system. But typically, the fan will be like having R-1 insulation. Compare this with R-40 for the rest of the insulation. That means, proportionally, the fan will lose as much energy as 40x the amount from the insulated part of the attic. If the fan is 4 square feet, that’s equivalent to 160 square feet of insulated attic – about the equivalent of one room.
In addition, some of the energy loss in a home is due to air leakage. Air leaking in and out through the fan carries heat/cold and moisture from the attic space that it opens into. So you want the best quality/tightest fan you can use.
A final consideration I just thought of – moisture in the attic. If you’re sucking air from the house and blowing it into the attic, you could cause major moisture problems in the attic if you transfer warm moist air from the house (during the colder seasons) into the cold attic. The moisture can condense in there leading to mold and wood rot. For this reason, it’s highly recommended that the fan be disabled and sealed air-tight during the cold seasons.
The hole in the breezeway would be for the outflow from the attic.
The house is a single story, with the heated area shape being pretty much a squared up “u” with the garages being on the side of the u that is open. The heated area is about 3000 sq. feet. The house has lots of windows, on all sides, including the sides that open onto the courtyard. It is out in the country on the side of a large pond.
As of now, the attic is closed off on the storage area side between the storage area and the garage. There will also be a tight sealing door between the storage area and the garage that leads into the house. On the side of the other garage they left a large opening for access to the attic over the house part. My thinking is the fan will draw from the house through the open door that connects the house and the storage area (door is closed to the garage) and will exit the other side of the house via the open area in the attic to the exit at the breezeway. I’m thinking there aren’t any other vents for outgo in the attic.
Looking at the links there was a whole house fan that is wall mounted. It doesn’t move a lot of air but if we had two of them in different areas, would that work? Wouldn’t be affecting the attic at all.
The fan won’t be used during cold weather. I will be hunkered down in blankets.
One important thing to consider is the flow of traditional whole-house fans. Fan flow is measures in cubic-feet per minute, also called CFM. A typical whole house fan can move about 10,000 CFM and uses a lot of energy (685W for the Dayton fan). That’s a huge amount of air. If your home is around 3000SF, then the volume is about 25,000 cubic feet so that fan could turn over all the air in just a few minutes.
In comparison, a high powered stove vent fan might be 1,000-2,000 CFM and a bathroom fan is about 100-200 CFM.
The smaller, insulated Tamarack fan moves 1,150 CFM and uses about 78 Watts. Since you have to run it 10x longer than the big Dayton to move the same amount of air, the overall energy efficiency is about equal. But it all depends if you want a slower, longer operation or a fast blast.
You mentioned through-wall fans. Looking at the specs, there appear to be capacities in the thousands of CFM but the hookup appears to use large ducts (which you’d need in order to move that much air).
At this point, you’re best of continuing the discussion with your architect. There are several options and I believe we’ve discussed most of the important pitfalls so you should be armed with enough information to make an intelligent choice.
Thank you so much for your input. You have been a tremendous help.
Ted, I want to replace both my 61-yr-old natural gas boiler, which runs a silent baseboard hot water system, and my 16-year-old natural gas water heater, which are in the same basement mechanical room. Are combined cycle systems effective? Terminology? Issues? What to know….?
I have to admit that I’m not sure specifically what type of system you’re referring to. I’m more used to hearing about combined cycle systems in large industrial settings.
Since you mentioned boiler and water heater, I’m assuming that we’re talking about a single boiler that heats your home and an indirect hot water tank.
I’m going to assume that’s what you’re asking…
I’ve been using this type of system in my home for years. They can be excellent and cost effective IF configured and controlled correctly.
First, in this day, I wouldn’t consider anything but a condensing boiler. Combustion efficiency is 92+ % and they’re far safer because they are sealed direct exhaust – they’ll take fresh air from the outside and directly pipe the exhaust out. With less efficient systems, you often have naturally venting which just uses convection to get the exhaust fumes out. Plus, they take air from the living space. Put this in your basement with the dryer and you can literally suck the exhaust fumes back into the house. This type of system has no place in a modern home.
Next, a good boiler and control system will modulate the combustion so that it burns less when the demand is low but can ramp it up on a cold day or if you’re filling a tub while heating. This makes it even more efficient.
Another good feature is an outdoor temperature sensor that allows the boiler to change the heating water temperature based on your actual needs. Cold weather? It cranks up the temperature so the radiators get hotter. Better comfort and efficient operation.
Another feature I like is the ability to flush out the remaining heat in the boiler after the call for the heat is satisfied. This way, you waste less heat keeping the boiler hot. Instead, the boiler sends the heat to the water heater tank or the radiators.
Finally, and this is a big one, the boiler can operate in a “cold start” mode. In old, and even new boilers, the boiler stays hot year round! This can reduce actual efficiency down to 40% or worse because so much energy is wasted keeping it hot. With a cold start system, it only runs when there’s a need for heat.
Those are the main things that I can think of this morning. I hope that’s what you were asking.
Thanks for taking the time to address my questions.
By combined cycle I mean a system that uses some of the heat from the boiler (during the five months it is running) to heat the separate potable water system. Currently the boiler and cylindrical tank water heater are separate, though in the same mechanical room. Both run on natural gas.
During warm months the boiler is turned off except for the pilot light.
Several vendors have pitched me on buying a joint system rather than replacing each. One vendor says I must do this because of a building code changes since 1954 that affects the natural gas line for my hot water heater.
What do you mean by a “condensing boiler”? Since water expands (when changing to either its solid and gaseous forms) condensing seems an odd word here. Is this a term of art and if so what other options exist, even if you think they are not smart options?
My current boiler heats water that runs through copper pipes (behind louvered metal frames) running along baseboards. The system is silent and requires no fans as convection moves the warm air just fine. In a recent appraisal, however, the appraiser described the system as “nonstandard and “odd,” but efficient and knocked down the value of my architect designed house because of this. System we have strikes me as preferable to blowing hot air with its white noise.
So, do I want to have the heating/potable water heating systems linked or separate? And if combined, what are the questions I should be asking of vendors? And are they are any manufacturers you recommend that I avoid? Or strongly consider?
THANKS
Thanks for the clarification.
A “condensing” boiler refers to a boiler that condenses moisture out of the exhaust stream, capturing more of the heat, normally wasted out the flue. Instead of several hundred degrees, the exhaust from these is cool enough to be vented through plastic pipe. This can increase the combustion heat capture efficiency from about 85% up to 92%-95%.
A conventional boiler is the type most people are familiar with. They have sheet-metal flues for the hot exhaust gasses and usually a cast-iron or steel combustion vessel and heat exchange system. As long as they’re operational, they keep the boiler hot, typically at 180F. While some of these have the more “intelligent” control systems, most have relatively simple thermostats that simply turn on the boiler any time the water bath in the boiler drops below a set temperature. This is why you’ll hear boilers turn on even if none of the thermostats in the house are on.
It sounds like you have baseboard convectors. As you note, hot water systems don’t require fans, they just let hot air rise. From a comfort standpoint, almost everybody prefers this over a hot air system. For reference, a boiler heats your home via hot water and radiators or convectors while a furnace heats via hot air.
I have no idea why they’d say your system is non-standard, unless there’s something about it that I’m not seeing. If it’s just baseboard convectors as you describe then about half the homes in my area use those.
A combined system with an “indirect” water tank is typically the way people go these days. In this system, the water heater tank is just an insulated holding tank with a heat exchanger. The boiler sees it as another heating zone and heats it as necessary to keep the water in the tank hot. This is compared to the system you have now where the water heater has its own combustion system. The boiler then operates year-round. During the non-heating months, it’s only used to keep the water in the tank hot.
The benefit of this configuration is that there’s only a single boiler, so only one flue. Also, only one combustion system to maintain. The water heating section is typically much more efficient than a standalone water heater. Also, as far as I know, the hot water tank may last longer since all it really does is hold hot water and doesn’t have the stresses of being fired with a combustion system.
If you haven’t seen my latest blog post, you might want to check that out. I based it on your question. I’ll add these notes to a future post.
Thanks for reinforcing my decision to run on oil for a few weeks till we have a thaw!
hey ted , had some questions thought you could help with. we put in the lennox high efficiency a/c with heat pump, not the best one but a level below because we decided the usage did not warrant the 2800 price bump in efficiency. we also ended up replacing the duct work with new to avoid fixing and resealing the old and hoping that it did the job. so it seems to be doing the job to keep us at 53 temp when I am not there because it is our vacation home . not sure if you rememb er our discussions several months ago. . do you know if follows and tracks how much the heat strip is being used?. I had some questions on whether it would be all right to shut my electric hot water heater when I am not home to save some electric. my sticker states 2005 electric rate calculation and 398 bucks a year to run. I was talking to the heating guy who said I really could shut it down and almost use my heater as almost an on demand situation. come out on a Friday night , turn it on and by the morning we are good to go. I thought if I know that I am not going out for several weeks in row then it might make sense. also , your thought on adding solar to roof , out of pockect , about 12000 for 21000 job after rebates and tax incentives. roi about 6 years according to my usage even though this system I just put in has not really given me recent data to know.. not sure if rebates and tax incentives will be around in 2016 as per salesman. so will waiting end up costing more or is that possibly sales pressure as panel prices drop …thanks again. bruce goodheart
Hi Bruce, good to hear from you again!
I don’t know of any thermostat that tracks backup heat usage. If you’re a bit geeky, like me, you could get an inexpensive temperature data logger that you could put in one of your hot air supply registers. You can set these to take a reading every so often (1 minute, for example) and it will record for months. Then you pop it into your USB and can see a graph of your supply temperatures. This is extremely useful. When the heat pump comes on normally, you’ll see a temperature of maybe 90F. When the backup strips come on, it will be much warmer, so it’s really easy to tell how it’s operating. Some hard data like this lets you make sound decisions based on actual data which I find much more useful than guessing 🙂
Here’s a nice collection of these types of data loggers.
I personally recommend spending a bit more and getting one that measures temperature and humidity because there’s always a need for getting a humidity measurement.
http://www.microdaq.com/data-logger/temperature/1.php
http://www.microdaq.com/data-logger/humidity/1.php
Seeing as our heat pumps (3 mini-splits) are covered in snow, we have been using our oil-fired furnace with hot water baseboard to heat our home located just south of Boston during this winter from hell. Our electric rates just increased to approx. 22 cents per KW and our last oil delivery was priced at $2.01 per gallon. I actually think we are saving money given the increase in our power and the decrease in oil – the mini-splits were installed in Nov. of 2013 and run constantly when the temp. drops. Your thoughts, Ted?
Snow covered mini-splits is a bummer. I’ve got the same problems. Need to install a shed roof over them and keep them clear so we can use them under all conditions.
As you noted Nina, electric rates are going up and we’re at very low oil prices. When you run the numbers, we’re at roughly equal operational cost for the heat pumps vs. oil for the numbers you gave me making typical assumptions for efficiency and performance of the two units. So run either system and for a given amount of heating, you’ll pay about the same.
Hi Ted,
I posted earlier asking whether I should have a contractor blow cellulose into my cathedral ceiling in my 1969 Raised Ranch home near New York City. It has a 7.5″ cavity presumably with 6″ fiberglass batting in it, which probably settled over time. You said you have a similar home and had a contractor blow cellulose in your own cathedral ceiling.
You noted the importance of making sure the contractor does it properly. Specifically, you said that rather than just poke the blower hose into the hole they drill in the ceiling sheet rock, it is important that they snake a hose all the way down to the base, and make sure it is dense packing as they go, pulling the hose slowly out as the bay fills with cellulose. You noted the former (improper way) is common – and a contractor did it the improper way in your own home, which you had another contractor come and re-do.
I went ahead and hired a contractor for this work. Ahead of time, I asked the owner of the company how they would do it, and he said they would snake the hose. On the day of the job, I tried to hang around and watch. I had to run an errand when they were going to fill the cathedral ceiling. When I got back, the workers were finishing up, and I saw that in fact they were just shoving the hose in a foot or two. I asked them about this, and they said it was fine, convincing me in the moment. They patched things up and left.
I rented an IR gun from Home Depot. It is mostly pretty even, with one section looking slightly less filled. But really I can’t tell if it is well dense packed everywhere else or just similar everywhere else.
My question is this: how important is it that I have this re-done? Perhaps if I really complain (I’ve not yet brought it up with the contractor – already paid also) they will come back and do it over, tightening it up. Or I could hire someone else. A part of me wants to leave it if it is not too bad and will not have moisture accumulate in there, since it is a pain to have them come in and tear up the place again, and etc. On the other hand, the last thing I want is rot in my ceiling over time.
What are your thoughts?
Thanks!!
Nate
In my experience, the ceilings were less problematic since the insulation tended to move down the cavity a bit, helping to fill the voids, albeit loosely. It’s not optimal, and you’ll lose some of the insulating properties but if the IR showed a fairly well filled cavity then it may not be worth the headaches. As for moisture and so on, if you’ve got a sheetrock or plaster ceiling that’s painted (many times as they usually are) then the moisture migration into the cavity is extremely slow. Where people get into trouble is when the ceiling has holes punched in it, like for recessed lights. One recessed light open to the cavity lets hundreds of times more moisture into cavity.
Too bad they didn’t do it right. I’m always looking to hear about the “good” contractors out there. Thus far, I’ve found very few I can recommend. The one guy in my area who I did trust ended up closing his company and joined the clergy!
Ted – I have a hybrid system – heat pump and oil furnace backup. I live in Eastern PA. The heat pump needs replacement. My HVAC technician suggests that because oil furnaces are “restrictive in their design” I should not waste money by buying higher than 15 SEER for the new heat pump. I just don’t get it…isn’t SEER a measure of A/C efficiency, not heating efficiency? Thet HSPF’s seem similar between the higher SEER heat pumps and the lower SEER ones, so I wouldnt think there is a difference on the heating side – but why can’t I get more efficiency in the summer for cooling when the oil furnance is off?
That’s a good question! I’m not positive what he’s referring to by “restrictive in their design”. Perhaps he’s talking about restrictive in terms of air flow?
Let’s logic our way through this.
Let’s first consider restrictive air flow. Isn’t that going to have a similar effect whether the unit is high or low efficiency? Yes, you want good air flow to get good efficiency, but the fact is, when you’re using a oil furnace, it needs a lot of air flow to safely heat the air without overheating. If it were so restrictive as to harm the efficiency of the heat pump, you’d have other problems! But it will affect the rated efficiency some if the air flow is less than called for in the design spec of the unit.
The HSPF is supposed to capture various usage conditions through the entire heating season, so if you look at the technical manuals, you’ll find varying HSPF figures for different climate zones. This seasonal averaging effect reduces the visibility of the unit efficiency, COP, hence making the HSPF’s similar. Probably not identical, but similar.
When used in air conditioning mode, a different set of test cases are used, and there are indeed a wide range of SEER units out there. Look at this article on the myth of SEER. Since there are different methods used for computing the benchmark figures HSPF and SEER, you’ll get different comparisons.
That said, if it’s higher efficiency, regardless of the measurement method, it’s higher efficiency! It’s like car gas mileage. People moan about inaccuracy in testing, but the fact is, I’d still rather drive a car that gets a rated 40mpg than one that gets 25mpg. In the same way, I’d rather get an air conditioner rated 19 SEER than one rated 15 SEER as long as the price differential isn’t too extreme.
All that said, you live in Eastern PA, like me, and you’re going to want the highest COP/HSPF that is cost effective to buy. Because often (I’m not going to say always), when they are more efficient, they pump out more heat at lower temperatures.
Finally, keep in mind that the manufacturers rate specific combinations of parts. If you look at the technical manuals, you’ll see numerous pages with air handler X, heat pump Y and furnace unit Z. Vary any of the factors and you’re changing the ratings. So if your guy is replacing just the coil/compressor parts and leaving the same oil furnace, then it’s very possible that the combined system will not be much better. I’ll bet that’s what he’s concerned about. It gets really complicated when you mix and match parts.
Ted – I found out what my HVAC technician was saying about the restrictive design of oil furnaces that limits the efficiency of a heat pump. In short, the oil furnace has a regular fan motor (a “blower”), not a variable speed one to match the heat pump, so if you attached a high efficiency heat pump to the furnace, during heating at least, the benefit of your variable speed fan is lost. I would think however, that during the summer, when the heat pump is in A/C mode, I’d still benefit from a greater efficiency as the “blower” is not on. Is that correct?
Ok, that makes some sense though many heat pumps don’t have variable speed blowers. It is true however that the higher efficiency ones have a multi-speed or true variable speed blower.
As for A/C, the blower is the same circulation fan in the air handler so it would be used any time the system runs. But again, there are plenty of systems with single speed blowers and the efficiency of the main unit would still be beneficial. Where you would lose is if the main unit had a two-stage compressor. Those really need air handlers that match because you want the air flow to be tied to that.
On the other hand, if you’re investing in a high efficiency heat pump for big $, then it would be worth having the air handler replaced with a variable speed unit mated to the primary heat pump.
Ted, I have a Carrier 3 ton HP that runs all night long if the temperature gets to 39 degrees or less. I can here a clicking sound to indicate when it heats up to desired temp. inside (66 degrees), but then, the clicking sound should signal that the unit shuts down but what is happening is cool air keeps coming through the vents. Do you have any idea why the fan outside would keep running??? My home is 1400 sq feet and live in Central Georgia.
Thanks a bunch!
Leigh
The temperatures in the mid thirties are particularly hard for heat pumps to keep up with. Especially in a humid climate, what happen is the coils will freeze up and require frequent deicing. Heat pumps have a specific cycle (called the defrost cycle) where they run in reverse, acting like an air conditioner, so some cool air may come into the house while heat is generated to melt the ice on the outside unit.
It may also be that your system is not running properly, in which case a service call is justified.
The question I have for you, it is have you had enough experience in the past at these temperatures where the system has behaved differently? If it had no problem in the past under these conditions then I would definitely have someone come out to do a service call.
Thanks for the quick response, Ted. Today is the 3rd time I’ve had the serviceman come out about the problem. He said that something was set for 120 minutes but he bumped it down to 30 min. Also, he stated that when the unit comes from the manufactory, the standard time is set for 60 min. Does this make sense?? He said to call him back if this didn’t solve the problem.
Ah, I see. Hopefully, this will remedy your problem, but, sadly, I’ve experienced too many servicemen (of all trades) who just try random things (running up bills in the process) hoping that they’ll work. If this doesn’t work for you, let me know.
I’ve got a thought but am about to step out. More later 🙂
Hopefully, some of the other smart readers will chime in with their ideas.
-Ted
Another idea – having a heat pump max out and have to run continuously in the 30’s or below is not unusual. Without getting too technical, the heat pump’s heating ability drops along with the temperature. At some temperature, the heat pump can no longer satisfy the heating needs of the house. Up north, we have backup heating systems that come on before this happens so you don’t notice it as much. It is possible that your system is just trying to heat more than it’s capable.
Do you know if your system has a backup heater? Most have electric “heat strips” (like a giant toaster) inside the air handler of the system. There’s usually a blue light that comes on the thermostat when those are active. It might be called “auxiliary” heat. Alternatively, the backup heating might be from a gas or oil furnace.
If you do have a backup system, your technician should be able to set the system to turn on the backup heat below a certain temperature. In your case, it might be for 40 degrees (a fairly common switchover temperature). So you might want to ask him about this.
That should give you enough to work from for now.
Good luck!
-Ted
Ted,
I need your advice on space under my sunroom. Currently, underneath my sunroom about 15’X20′, there is about 2 FT height open space. And this causes the sunroom is cold in winter especially the floor. I am thinking to enclose the open area to become a crawlspace and insulate the crawlspace. Is this a good idea? Any idea how much that will cost? Thanks for the help.
If I understand correctly, your sunroom is currently over a space that is totally open. Maybe a lattice to keep out animals?
If this is the case, your best bet would probably be to have a couple inches of closed cell spray foam applied directly to the underside of the sunroom floor and the joists supporting the floor.
This will both reduce heat loss through the floor and greatly reduce the chance of moisture damage to the exposed underfloor.
But, this is just one part of the heat loss for the sunroom. You’ve got a large expanse of glass which loses lots of heat when the sun isn’t coming in. I add this because I wouldn’t want you to insulate the floor thinking that suddenly the room will be cozy and warm. Better, yes, but still not perfect.
Another question – how much heat do you have in the sunroom? Because of the inherent heat loss, you need more supplied heat relatively compared to the rest of the house.
Hope this helps.
-Ted
P.S. as for price, this type of spray foam is typically $1-$2 per square foot per inch of thickness. Since it’s a small area, the cost per foot would be higher, so your 300 S.F. floor, plus joists, would probably be around $1000-$1500. This is a very rough guesstimate since a lot of other factors can affect the cost. With only 2′ of space, the technician will have to lie on his/her back and slowly slither under the floor while in a full body suit. Really unpleasant work!
On the other hand, turning it into a crawl space would cost at least as much plus risks creating conditions that would rot out the floor. I strongly recommend against that approach.
Thanks. There is a wall with all glass and the sunroom does have two vents. I currently close that due to the minimum usage during the winter. The heat loss I would say it bad because it is clod in that room. Thanks again.
Here is my problem. I have 2800 sq ft house. Attic has been air seal and additional insulation. We still have a constant cold draft in house. We have so much neg air pressure in house. Air rushes in all over, which brings in cold in filtered air. I blower door tests done which came out to around 2000. I did have a duct blaster test atmpted but could not get reading because return are SOO leaky. Went to finished badement to fix some leaks, nothing is working. Paint on furniture and walls are chipping and my one return in badement is filthy, I cut hole to look. Any suggestions? Rick
Rick, didn’t the people who did the blower door test and duct blaster tests give you any recommendations? I can’t speak for the company you used but when I did this work I provided my clients with a 30 page report detailing every air leakage spot and recommendations for proper remediation including infrared photos and so on. IMHO, this is the only way to do this properly. You have to approach the issue scientifically, prioritizing the issues so that you can spend your money wisely.
If the company you worked with just came in and said your blower door number is 2000, well, that’s pretty much useless. You already know you have drafts.
If your docs are so leaky that they couldn’t even get any pressure reading, then I would start there. Either they did a test wrong, or your docs are either broken or detached from the boots. Again, when they did the tests, they should of been scanning the walls and ceilings with an infrared camera to see where the leakage was occurring so that you can go right to the source of the problem and fix it.
My number one recommendation would be to restart the analysis from scratch with a competent energy auditor. Have them show you samples of their reports to ensure that they give you actionable information on your house. It should detail exact leakage locations and recommendations.
If you want to get started on your own it could be quite difficult but here’s one tip. Turn on all the exhaust fans in your house, like bathroom fans and vent range hoods and the dryer. All of these will suck air from your house and blow it outside creating a poor man’s blower door test. Turn off your furnace or forced air system so that the fan isn’t running. Next, Walk from room to room feeling your air vents. In a properly sealed system, no air should be coming from the vents. In a leaky duct system, you’ll feel cold air being sucked into the house through the leaks. The closer the vent is to the source of the leak, usually the more airflow you’ll feel. Keep a notebook and take notes for each room and how bad the cold air flow seems to be. Since the ducts are all connected together, there will be leakage evident in all the vents but it should be stronger in some places. I’ve done this test before and felt tons of cold air coming in from some vents only to find that the duct wasn’t even attached on the other side of the ceiling!
This pretty simple test can yield a wealth of information about your duct system and its leakage. Leaky ducts are responsible for, on average, about 20% energy loss in a typical house. It’s really unconscionable how horrible duct systems are and how much we are willing to put up with.
Good luck, I hope you’re able to track down your problems. And I really hope your energy auditor is able to give you more information so that you can address the most serious issues in a timely and cost-effective manner.
I did receive a report from one company 2 years ago. And he first wanted to take off part of siding and inject insulation and do attic. I went with another company, which was more expensive. They first came out and did not air seal or blow insulation correct in attic. I had them come back out and redue baffles and air seal last year. Did not work. I had them come out again, becuase I had no air moverment ant it looked the baffles were blocked a bit they did agree. I redid baffles my self. All my soffits are clear and baffles are in and I still get NO AIR FLOW. I had a new ridge vent put in. I thought right when it was being repalce in summer, I would see hot air flowing out of the top of roof went it was off, but NOTHING. NO Air flowc. This is when I had just a tester come out and he did a duct blaster. He told me it has to be my returrns. I went into basement, and took down some dryway and got into ducts. They person who finished my basement originally put vents in returns but then fixed with duct tape. I fixed to hole with mastic and mastic tape. Still nothing. my house is very unfortamble with a draft all the time. Furnance is turning on every 20 min. at 72 degees. I am going to look up in attic again to look for leaks. Where is your company located? I live in Collegeville Pa. No anyone up here? Thanks for your help\
Hi Rick, clearly a lot going on there. More than I could address in a paragraph or two.
You’re in luck. The best energy guy in the area is located very close to you. Get in touch with Craig Arbaugh or Residential Energy Solutions. http://www.residentialenergysolutions.com/
Craig was a builder for years then got exclusively into home energy consulting so he’s independent – he makes nothing off of the work he recommends so his only goal is to help you determine the best solutions for your homes. All you pay is for his consulting time.
Good luck!
Who do I call to have this checked? We have a huge amount of dust and I’m sre things aren’t sealed properly! Thank you
You would want to find an energy auditor in your area. You may be able to contact a local heating and air-conditioning company and ask them who does duct leakage tests. If you talk with an energy auditor explain your situation and see if they have any recommendations. If they’re good they’ll feel to do some tests.
Beware of companies that just want to come in and give you a generic checklist energy audit, that’s of no use to you. You specifically want to search for leaks in your duct system that’s causing your house to be dusty.
How would I be able to find an energy consultant like yourself in my area? Your information regarding continued dust from a leak sounds like my situation.
where are you located?
There are some resources on the web such as the BPI it stands for Building Performance Institute. Also ResNet, among others work closely with energy auditors and building professionals.
If you let me know where you live I can do a little groundwork and maybe other readers can chime in with their opinions. Good luck.
Hi Ted,
Great blog!
I have two questions. I have received mixed information from two different insulation contractors who seem to have two different sales approaches (which correspond with the information they give).
In short, here is my situation:
I just moved into a 1969 raised ranch near New York City, with about 1/3 cathedral ceilings. For the attic portion, I have original R19 fiberglass batts, with gaps. I was thinking I want more insulation there. The first contractor wants to do a lot of air sealing, then blow 12″ of cellulose. This contractor is very expensive, and wanted to upsell me to to insulate many parts of the house.
The second contractor said that I have good soffit and ridge ventilation, and so air sealing is not necessary. There are no moisture problems thus far, so it will not be needed. He also said “the cellulose will the the sealer.” This contractor was reasonably priced.
Question 1: can I get away without air sealing? The first contractor wanted $5000 for air sealing and 12″ of cellulose for 900 sq ft. The second wanted $1700 for just the cellulose.
One other question: the second contractor also offered to dense pack the vaulted ceilings with cellulose (though he was not pushy). There was probably R19 fiberglass in there origninally, which now has gaps, and may be less effective. My understanding is that the cellulose would bring it up to R22 and fill in all gaps. My concern is that a) will this be a problem and reduce needed air flow in the cavities of the ceiling, from soffit to ridge vent? and b) do the holes they drill and plug with spackle crack in the future, leaving little circular cracks all over in a few years?
Question 2: should I do the dense pack cellulose in the cathedral ceiling?
Thanks!
Nate
Thanks Nate, Glad to have you here as a reader!
Sounds like my home.
The second contractor might be misunderstanding the air sealing that the first contractor is proposing. Soffit/ridge ventilation has nothing to do with air sealing the house. Studies have shown that the modern practice of venting in this matter makes air sealing the attic even more important because the air flow and pressures involved has a tendency to suck air from the living space. OTOH, using a heavy load of cellulose has been shown to significantly reduce air movement from the house so one could argue that air sealing is less necessary.
Soapbox….
As an “energy guy”, we’re trained to start with air sealing. Actually, more accurately, we’ve learned of the importance of measuring the home before doing anything so that you can focus your efforts on those portions of the “envelope” that require remediation. An afternoon of testing with a blower door and thermal imaging camera, especially this time of year, can be extremely revealing and save you a lot of time and heartache down the line. So I’d strongly urge you to get a qualified energy auditor to come in and evaluate your exact situation. They should be able to point out specific areas that need air sealing and guide you through the process. They should also know who the reliable contractors are in the area and be able to give you candid recommendations. If you talk to an energy auditor, ask them about this – tell them that you’re looking for an independent assessment and would like their recommendation on the contractors who do good work in the area. If they’re hesitant to do so, or are tied to a specific contractor, find someone else. There are a bunch of out there who are passionate about doing this right.
Back to your question 🙂
The question of dense packing cathedral ceilings is highly debated. Modern building science shows that this is, under many circumstances, a fine approach that doesn’t lead to any moisture problems when done properly. I did it in my own home and would do it again.
The trick is finding a contractor who will do it right. Many insulation contractors do it wrong. This is another question for a local energy auditor. Find out who in your area is certified to do true dense packed cellulose. This is a sore point, so I’m going to write a few more words on the topic…
The ONLY right way to do dense packed cellulose is by sticking a hose down into the cavity and filling it up a bit at time, pulling the hose out slowly as the cavity fills. They must also meter the cellulose to ensure that the right amount is going in. They should do calculations to figure out how many pounds of insulation should be installed and verify that number as they go. When I had my ceilings (and walls) done before I knew better, the idiots just put the hose up to the hole in the wall/ceiling, blew in insulation, and claimed that was dense packed. Ugh. Ever try blowing into a bottle? What happens? The air pressure builds up in the bottle until you can’t blow any more. Now imagine if you were blowing insulation into that bottle like that. You’d get a smattering of insulation falling to the bottom, and maybe you’d get lucky and some would filling, but the back pressure would prevent the insulation from filling in uniformly or packed tightly enough.
I’d highly recommend contacting the insulation companies (those in your area that make the actual cellulose) and find out who they recommend for dense pack cellulose installation. When you’re talking to the contractor, ask them how they install the dense pack in closed cavities. If they don’t talk about using a smaller diameter hose carefully inserted all the way into the cavity, then they’re doing it wrong and you can send them on your way. This is another reason to first hire an energy auditor and getting their recommendations. You can also ask the auditor to come back for a post-insulation inspection, to ensure that the job was done correctly. It should only take them an hour or less to do this because the thermal camera will show all the unevenness and voids if the insulation wasn’t installed properly.
How bad is this problem? It’s so bad that one of my friends who is in the foam business himself had a botch job when someone came to do blown in insulation in his walls! I scanned the walls and found that the insulation had just dribbled into the cavities, affording essentially no insulation. Same thing happened in part of my living room where the contractor blew cellulose into an cantilevered overhang.
Hope this gives you some tips you can use.
Happy New Year!
Ted, I’m remodeling a 100 year old house that has a stucco exterior. Would using closed cell spray foam to insulate opened up exterior walls be a problem? Would moisture come through the stucco and get trapped by the spray foam causing the wall sheathing to rot?
Dave
They’ll often put moisture impermeable board foam behind stucco walls in order to prevent moisture drive from the exterior getting in to the walls. For example, see this discussion about drainage planes. In particular, read the comment for Figure 4. The tricky part is getting the contractors to do it right. Improper drainage is usually what leads to sheathing rot as opposed to insulation methods.
I’d also recommend reviewing this paper on Stucco Woes. It’s an eye opener. I’ve unfortunately had to diagnose some of the myriad of stucco failures around PA and it ain’t pretty.
To more directly answer your question, rather than spray foam, I’d study up on some of the building guidelines on Building Science.com and ensure that the stucco is applied properly over a good, moisture impermeable drainage plane. Insulating the wall behind it could be done with spray foam or whatever your preference. Details will depend upon your local climate/temperatures so I can’t give you more specifics.
Ted,
I’m in the process of rehabbing my 40-year old crawlspace. It’s a couple of courses of cinder block atop a stem wall/footing poured to grade. My question is in regards to the vapor barrier. Some people say to encapsulate the whole space, including the walls with a vapor barrier. Others say you shouldn’t cover the walls because they will need to dry to the inside with any moisture they absorb, or wick from the ground. What is your opinion on this? Also, I’m going to install rigid foam on the walls & rim joists to insulate. If you do think it’s acceptable to run the vapor barrier up the wall, does it matter if the rigid is underneath or on top of the vapor barrier?
Much thanks!
Ted,
I’m in the process of rehabbing one of my bedrooms that was an addition, so it is on a crawlspace. When ripping up the carpeting I found an access. Upon further inspection, there is a vapor barrier on the floor, very thin, not taped and not run up the walls. There is R19 fiberglass batts that run from the rim down the wall and out onto the floor. Surprisingly it appears to be mold free and relatively dry, although the dirt floor under the plastic does seem a little damp in places, but I don’t know that there’s anything I can do about that. And horribly mouse infested in the past it appears!
What is your preferred method of insulating crawlspaces? I was thinking of rigid foam insulation on the walls & in the rim joists (2″) and then a heavy vapor barrier on the floor, sealed & taped and run up onto the wall. What are your thoughts on spray foam in the rim joists in lieu of cutting individual pieces of rigid foam & sealing? And the floor doesn’t seem completely level. Should I fill in the low spots, or possibly across the whole floor with gravel, either below or on top of the vapor barrier?
Secondly, I realize there should be some air flow through the space. Unfortunately, with the room being an add on, there isn’t much. They basically just punched a hole for a 8″ heat run through the existing basement wall, so that’s pretty much the extent of my air exchange. Should I add a grille on the existing heat run that travels through the crawl space, to slightly heat/dry out/pressurize the space, or should I cut a larger hole out of my existing basement wall for access from the basement and so the basement & crawlspace can share an air space?
Thanks in advance, you never steer me wrong!
Ted, I read your article on crawl spaces. I bought a new house in mid-construction in Hamilton Ontario, Canada. Technically on a flood plain, the foundation design was subject to local conservation authority rules, making it a 9′ deep foundation with 5′ crawl space with three floodgates installed. One is on the north, upstream side of the house and the other two are on the opposite side. The previous contractor says it has a poured concrete floor 9 feet down with a proper drain to the septic but it had to be filled in with gravel per the permit. The local building code, totally separate fron the conservation authority, requires insulation on the crawl space ceiling. My question is, where should I locate my water pressure tank? The line from the well comes in beside the one floodgate, just inches above the gravel floor. I wondered if building an insulated box and fastening it to the foundation wall, above the well line, beside the floodgate, as close to the ceiling as possible, would be a good idea, or whether sitting on the gravel floor is better. Thanks! Pete
I have to admit this is out of my realm of expertise, so take anything I say here with a grain of salt.
I’ve never heard of a construction like that. So you’re saying there’s 4′ of gravel over a poured floor? Wow.
Since you say the crawl space ceiling has to be insulated, I’m assuming that the space itself will be vented to the outside and therefore get cold? If that’s so, it’s definitely a frozen pipe waiting to happen so your intuition of insulating around the pressure tank is in the right direction. You’d want to protect the tank, incoming and outgoing pipes from freezing.
The problem is (there’s always a problem) you could insulate as much as possible and still risk freezing if there’s no heat source to keep the lines above freezing. I’ve seen plenty of insulated pipes in ventilated crawl spaces that freeze. The insulation slows down the heat loss but as long as the tank/pipes are in a space that is colder than them, they’ll get colder and colder. Ideally, you want anything that you don’t want to freeze to be inside the same insulated space as your heated home.
That said, your idea of elevating the pressure tank close to the crawl ceiling which is your home’s floor, could be a good one. If I had to do it, I might do exactly what you way and build an insulated box around the tank and opens to the crawl ceiling so it could get a little warmth from the house. I wish I could draw a picture – imagine the top of the box is the floor of the house. You’d have to seal and insulate it well. Another simpler option might be build the insulated box around the tank (including underneath) and add a small heat source in there to keep the tank above freezing. And by “small heat source”, I mean something like a light bulb. If you wanted to get fancy, the light bulb could be on a small thermostat so it only comes on when the temperature approaches maybe 5-10 degrees above freezing. I did a little spreadsheet and if my numbers are correct, then a 40W bulb would be enough to keep an R-8 airtight box that is 3’x3’x4′ at 40F with a surrounding temperature of 10F. This still doesn’t help your pipes but it’s a start.
I hope this makes sense.
Your answer makes perfect sense to me. Yes, the space is super-vented and subject to extreme cold because of the three slatted and screened 3′ x 3′ metal floodgates. Thanks again.
p.s. My mistake. I have flood vents, not floodgates.
Ted,
What is your opinion on whole house humidifiers that attach to the furnace. My furnace has been running quite a bit and it’s getting pretty dry in my home, to the point that static electricity is becoming prevalent. I thought I remembered reading something on your site where you are not a fan of humidifiers in the house due to their contribution of moisture into the home, but I can’t recall positively if I read it on your site or not.
Thanks!
Andy
Your memory is correct. In general, they’re not a great idea for a couple of reasons.
First, as you noted, they dump lots of humidity into your home. In a tight home, that can cause condensation and the subsequent mold problems.
In a home that is leakier and tends towards dry air in the winter like you describe, they can be useful but with caution. Often, dry air in a home is an indicator of leaky ducts, windows and doors. So, I’d look there first before humidifying. The humidifier is a band aid.
If you absolutely need to install one, you should be diligent about keeping it clean. Often, the systems go for years without cleaning and become a moldy, algae filled mess. The humidifier is a perfect incubator for biological nasties – warm air and high humidity.
Hope that helps
-Ted
I have a cathedral ceiling . I have 1″ rigid foam board from overhang all the way to ridge vent ,with a 1 ” air gap between roof and rigid board . I sprayed 2 ” of closed cell foam against the rigid foam. then I put unfaced fiberglass batts against the foam . Of course 5/8 wall board after that .From what Ive read on your articles this is the wrong way?
Technically, yes. The moisture could move through the fiberglass and condense on the foam under extreme conditions.
Where do you live? With foam board and spray foam, you’ll probably not have problems unless you have very cold winters and lots of moisture gets into the ceiling cavity.
I live in Michigan. Not exactly Alaska but it does get cold. I was hoping enough spray foam would stop the dew point . I used a product called Versi-foam suppose to be R 7.4 per inch.
How much fiberglass? The ratio of R-values can help determine the likelihood of problems. Sounds like around R-12 between the foam board and the spray foam. If you have the same R-value of fiberglass then the interface between the two will be approximately the average of the indoor and outdoor temperatures.
That could get a bit cold when the temperatures drop to 0F.
Frankly, I’d be a bit concerned but not panicked. If everything is sealed up tightly, I wouldn’t go ripping it up. It might be prudent to monitor it through the winter to see if there are any indications of moisture.
I’m not saying that you’re out of the woods. You want to stay on top of this because it could develop into a serious problem.
I put as much that will fit without compressing the batts. Anywhere from R-19 to R-30 ,and even adding more when I have the space. The foam board is 1 inch from the roof sheeting ,then 2″ of foam sprayed on the foam board ,then batts ,then drywall. I thought I read an article or blog that said that order would not work. Maybe I can find it and re-post it …… I found this is what I was reading on your site ……As noted above, flash-and-batt is becoming more popular, but the same rules that apply to its installation in ceilings applies to it in walls – the foam must be sprayed against the backside of the sheet rock on the wall. It must not be applied to the outer wall sheathing with fiberglass on the inside. This is almost certain to lead to rotten, moldy walls. But, if you don’t do it the cheap way, then just spray the foam against the sheathing, but use enough of it so that the inner surface never gets cold.
Im a little confused I did not spray the foam onto the sheeting ,and it is also not on the drywall .If you can explain this that would help a lot.
Thank you so much for your help.
Here’s the problem: all that fiberglass adds R-value between the room’s warmth and the rest of the insulation. This lets the foam surface get cold. When the moisture from the house comes in contact with that cold surface, it may condense into liquid water.
The problem is that the fiberglass is moisture permeable while the foam isn’t.
I want to follow up with this. Don’t panic. There are numerous cathedral ceilings built without any ventilation and packed full of fiberglass that haven’t had any problems. Since you’ve got the foam in there, you should be in much better shape than those. And if you did a good job with your sheetrock and didn’t install lots of recessed lights or poke other holes in it, then the moisture movement through the paint and sheetrock will be slow. In other words, if it were my ceiling, I wouldn’t go and rip things apart. I’d just monitor it over time and make sure there’s no signs of drips or water inside the cavity. If you do start getting water stains on your ceiling, then you’ve got problems and you’ll want to open the ceiling to inspect.
As a side note – a lot of people experience mysterious roof “leaks” and end up spending thousands of dollars trying to find leaks and fix the roof. Most contractors can’t find this type of problem. The water comes from heavy condensation forming inside the ceiling cavity. Usually, this is associated with recessed lights which lets tons of moisture into the ceiling cavity. Personally, I think it should be illegal to install recessed lights in cathedral ceilings because it’s so difficult to do properly.
As always, thanks Ted!
I’m in Michigan so yes, a vapor barrier is required. In a perfect world I’d install poly to the ceiling below and then unfaced batts in the attic. I have also heard of retrofits where they install poly in the attic up and over every truss. That seems tedious and involved in such tight quarters. It would also require removing every batt from every bay. I think my plan is to reinstall the existing batts after I’m done air sealing unless they are damaged in some fashion. I’m just glad this is a one time and done type of project. Working at the eave edge of a 4/12 roof is not fun, as you know!
Then you’ll have to go “by the book” to avoid complications later. As you noted, if they’re in good shape, reuse them but if damaged, replace with new, faced batts. You can add the old/damaged ones on top of the new ones as added insulation if you slash the paper facing so that you’re not trapping moisture between layers or simply shred them (but that’s really messy).
BTW – you might want to invest in a hard hat. I saved my scalp crawling in the narrow sections of my 4/12 roof. Without it, I would have ended up with some nasty puncture wounds from the roofing nails!
Good luck!
Ted,
I’m working on taking your advice on tips for insulating my attic. I’m air sealing all of the top plates and protrusions from wires, building foam boxes for recessed lights, I’m installing foil-backed foam board to the underside of my of my trusses, but leaving it open at the peak. I’ve also added 3.5″ of foam above my exterior top plates at the eaves and foamed in place. Basically there’s no exterior air entering the attic at the eaves. It travels up the channel I’ve created between the roof deck and the foam board on the bottom side of the trusses.
My question is, during the process of air-sealing all my gap, cracks, top plates, etc., I have pulled out a fair amount of insulation. I’m assuming it’s the original insulation to the house. It’s yellow fiberglass with a generic brown craft paper backing in 4 foot sections. The backing has become very brittle over time. The condition of the actual fiberglass seems ok though. My question is 1. should I replace the insulation, would new insulation perform any better, and 2. if I do decide to replace with new, do I really need a craft-paper barrier on the insulation if I’ve been diligent in air-sealing with foam and my current setup? I know even paint acts in some manner of a vapor barrier on the conditioned side of the home.
Thanks in advance!
Andy
You’ve been busy!
I’ve had the same issue with brittle paper facing. Generally, air/humidity gets around the batts regardless of the condition of the facing so I wouldn’t worry about replacing it as long as the fiberglass itself is in good shape. Consider that one popular form of insulation is shredded fiberglass blown onto the floor of attics. I don’t see vapor retarders used in these cases. As you note, latex paint, drywall, etc. are all vapor retarders and the air sealing your doing will do much more to reduce moisture movement.
However, the use of vapor retarders varies depending on local codes. Typically, the colder the climate, the more important they are. So make sure you check with local code enforcement to make sure you do things in a way that won’t get flagged if you go to sell your home. The last thing you want is for a building inspector to say that your home isn’t code compliant and you have to install a vapor retarder.
hey ted , i feel good about the xp17 now that you explained the two stage system would be good for lesser weather and more then likely my system will be shut down when i am not there and when freezing pipes are not an issue so even less use except probably mid november to possibly early march. the stat price difference is about 8800.00 with new stat and rebate from lennox or 8675 with using my hnoeywell wifi stat that i put in at the middle of winter last year to monitor the oil system. . works fine not the fancy looking touchscreen icomfort that lennox is linking with the system. that said , choice is 125 bucks for new setup and no repair scabbling if some issue happens to arise and the finger pointing could begin, also do you think their if possibly some enhanced efficiency actually happening with this lesser system. i saw the stat on amazon for abour 350.00 so not so crazy to replace and if it breaks it 2 years from now i would think that shouldnt get higher. so i told the guy who i want to do the job to price it out with the stat and rebate . if he is in the ballpark i will gladly give him the job. both are certified lennox guys on the website for lennox but the guy who is 8800.00 with the new stat has the added distinction of award winning and premier dealer added to his credentials when you compare on zip code 11958. so my loyalty to the ductless guy for really actually pushing the numbers at 17 degreees to go for the lesser system counts for something but this is business here . he originally was not looking for energy company rebates and lennox rebates until i pushed him on it . he was avoiding some formwork that apparantly is not that bad . so i will see if he prices the xp17 at the 8800.00 to match the other and its all good either way i hope. scary that if i did not be a real pian in the ass to all involved parties to gather info , i could really get abused with misinformation on these units and the squewed numbers to try and justify them .so hopefully final question again is new stat for 125 bucks extra to avoid possible lesser effeciancy or just be ok with my working honeywell as is . thanks bruce
Given your usage, the Lennox iComfort thermostat might be useful since you can set it up for remote access from anywhere. Not sure if your existing one has internet connectivity. Since freezing pipes is a concern, monitoring your system over the internet could give you peace of mind. They also say: “Alerts and Reminders not only will your iComfort Wi-Fi monitor itself with advanced diagnostics, it can also send you and your dealer alerts and emails if the system needs service or maintenance.”
Under normal circumstances, I might think this adds too much tech to a stat, but in your case, it could be genuinely useful. Personally, I’d go for it!
hey ted , was looking at carrier with coastal protection weathershield yhat they recommend to prevent corrosion 25hnb6**c and 25vna8 with 5 stage compressor . also lennox x17 versus two stage xp21 . . what would you pay extra for over the xp17 in performance . the coastal protection sounds like putty on Seinfeld selling the car undercoating. I already will have the warranty on lennox for 5 years plus 10 on the compressor anyway..home stretch now, you have lead me to the xp17 unless I can get a better upgrade for a great price at this point best deal is xp17 with duct work sealed and heat strip as well for 8700.00 after local energy rebate and forgoing stat purchase and rebate from lennox. full service for 198 yearly with emergency call included. I think it looks good unless the 2 stage or 5 speed system will not overly put me overbudget.. . thanks again , please let me know how I can repay you for your helpful advice. bruce
Here’s a comparison table I found showing the difference between the XP21 and XP17. From what I can see, the specs are very similar but the 21 gives you the advantage of two stage, as you noted. This would be most evident in the spring and fall when you might need a little AC and dehumidification and where the full blast chilling would be too much. If I were doing this for a weekend home, and the cost differential were only a few hundred, I’d do it. But usually it’s a big cost jump to go from 1-stage to 2-stage, so it would be hard to justify. It does sound like the XP17 is the logical choice – good performance, reasonable price and simple enough that most repairmen could deal with it.
I’m always happy to help. Your participation is all the payment I need.
Ted,
I need your advice on my basement. It’s a standard 8″ poured concrete wall located in Michigan and I’m looking at finishing it. There are two insulation methods that I am considering. The first is where Tyvek or Typar is draped down the wall. Over top of that mineral wool insulation or mineral wool board is attached, and then a standard stud wall built in front and insulated normally. The second method consists of gluing pink foam insulation board to the foundation, foam sealing all gaps, cracks, joints, then building a stud wall in front and insulating. With this method I am not sure if I should use 1″ or 2″ foam board. I read a study where someone did all the math for me and basically the premise was that you really don’t gain that much more r-value or permeance by going to a 2″ board for the cost difference. My question is, first, do you have any insight into a preferred method, two, which of these methods would you lean to, if not your own, and three, if the foam board method is preferred, what size board should I use.
As always, much thanks in advance!
Andy
That’s a great question!
I personally like the added moisture reduction and insulation that properly installed foam board gives, and went that route for the areas of my basement foundation walls that I insulated. But I have really porous cinder block walls, so it was more important than if I had poured concrete walls.
In your research, I’m sure you ran across graphs or comments about ground temperature as you get deeper into the dirt, but I’ll reiterate for others who might read this.
The top of the foundation wall is exposed to the direct cold of the outdoors and so it gets really cold too. You’d want to insulate that section just like you would any other exterior exposure. As you get down into the dirt, the temperature of the wall moderates, so if you’re a few feet down, the variations are much less, but can still be cold. In addition, the concrete conducts the heat from your home up the wall and out. So typically, you’d want at least the top half of the wall well insulated. To me, that means 2″ foam board. Below that, you could get away with less – the 1″ would probably suffice depending upon the wall temperature during the winter.
A vapor retarder like Typar plus the mineral wool would provide pretty good insulation and moisture movement control. It’s probably fine as long as you don’t have a lot of moisture coming through the walls. you’d have to be the judge of that since it’s going to depend on your local soil drainage, water table, etc. I’ve seen adjacent homes where one has no problems and the next one is sitting atop a spring! You just can’t tell without analyzing the specific conditions.
So the short of it is, if the amount of moisture getting through your walls is low, using a vapor retarder and the mineral wool would be fine. If you’re at all concerned with moisture, then using 2″ of pink board for the top half of the wall and 1″ for the rest would likely do the trick.
hey ted , thanks for muddying the waters again.if I could get the lennox 17 for 9000.00 with good service at 200.00 year or greenspeed for 11,000 with service contract of 225 yearly with emergency calls extra . that is what is is boiling down to. I think using the wifi stat to monitor during so called “business hours” to avoid the weekend calls could work unless it just happens to crap out when I am there on a weekend. if I keeps tabs on it , that would probably minimize emergency calls . so roughly 2700.00 more including heat strip and ductwork sealing. what do you think ? the 29200 btu at 17 degrees looks good on paper , will it translate over to energy saving in a second home at 52-55 most of the winter.. thanks bruce. by the way, carrier is offering some nice rebates as well but the problem is there are no local participating dealers to go to. the closest is sears and they are not that close and don’t even know what their estimate to install would be, my wife will divorce me if I start with some new guys all over again. so do I even chase that rebate money when they could be bumping up pricing to pad it anyway.
Realistically, the properly installed Lennox system is probably more than good enough for what you want. It would likely take forever to pay back the reduced energy bills of the more expensive system.
I was thinking about the thermostat more throughout the day, and I think you’re probably fine with your old stat because that system isn’t super new and probably doesn’t depend upon special features of the fancy stat. If it were a state-of-the-art system like the green speed, I’d say definitely go with the high end stat because it probably is much more dependent upon a smart interconnection between the two.
So to keep things simple, realistically you probably are best with what your guy is recommending on the Lennox system.